World space cursor in combat

[Jimmini]

How about having the cursor reside in world space instead of screen space while in combat mode? I mean like it does already when rotating the view (it stays at the same position in the world). That way, the cursor would be fixed, regardless of character/camera movement, at the position I moved it to in the world.
Since I have to target an object (ie. the enemy) that is part of "the world", wouldn't it be more logical that the cursor lies in that space too? (It probably would be very annoying outside of combat, of course.)
Of course I'm not saying that the cursor should move to the world's north when moving the mouse upwards. Moving the cursor using the mouse would work exactly the same as it is now. (Now that I come to think of it, how about moving the cursor in polar coordinates around the player??)

I began using spears recently and noticed that it's relatively hard to keep the target at the enemy's head while moving towards him since the cursor moves behind him and my character therefore targets the stomach instead. (As explained here under "thrusts" by Madoc: http://www.baremettle.com/forums/index.php?threads/exanima-beta-0-6-1-6-thrusts-hirelings-and-more.3313/)
But if the cursor wouldn't move with the camera, I would only need to adjust when my target moves.


Was that tried already? Is it as intuitive as it sounds in my crazy head? Maybe put it as an option in the settings and see if the players find it useful? I would really like to try this once.


P.S. Colossal thanks for making this game! And Sui Generis even more so! I didn't believe I would see an interesting RPG in my life anymore, after all this stagnation (or worse) they call "Skyrim", "Witcher 3", "Pillars", "Fallout 4", ... "Game of the year" my ass.

Hail, Bare Mettle!

 

[Syllabear3]

I dont understand...
Thrusting is really simple once you know how to do it. Is even more acurate than slash or overheads, where you need to predict where the blow will land.

And yes, companies are using names to do lazy games that fanbois will praise. But i am pretty sure once this game is finished will have a lot of recognition.
I am already hyped with what we have already. My only fear is that if more sjw like people keeps taking an eye on this, this will end like another one of those tittles.

 

[Jennre_Bard]

My only fear is that if more sjw like people keeps taking an eye on this, this will end like another one of those tittles.

What is SJW? (honest question, not a poke).

 

[Tony]

What is SJW? (honest question, not a poke).

I believe it stands for social justice warrior and usually refers to feminists or other such groups.

 

[Jimmini]

Thrusting is simple and very precise, yes. The "problem" is not the thrusting being inaccurate, but getting the cursor to the point I want to hit, as it moves with the camera. I think this could be very easily mitigated by subtracting the relative camera movement from the cursor's position each frame. I could be wrong, but I believe this would make combat quite a bit more precise, more so than it is already.

I seriously doubt Bare Mettle's developers will change anything in their game, apart from the things that don't fit in their own vision. (Well, except the topic with the children.) Aside that I can't even think of anything, feminists would probably want to have changed in this game.

Ave, Bare Mettle!

 

[Syllabear3]

Oh i think i understand what you are trying to say now... but i think it is imposible. I allways use my camera in the same angle, to prevent this what you are saying. And i feel it more comfortable that way, but you allways have that sensation that its matter of luck hitting the face.

Anyways, i think is enough accurate. Just click the part that you want to thrust and move forward.

 

[Jimmini]

I think you don't understand, the camera's angle has nothing to with it. It's the opposite of impossible, it should be a matter of mere minutes to have this work. It's all just about having the cursor stay at the same point *in the world*, unless I move it myself, regardless of whether I dodge or stay still, in contrary to having the cursor stay at the same point *on the screen*, as it does now. Just like a crate on the floor doesn't move when the camera moves or rotates, the cursor shouldn't either (in my opinion). You would still need to compensate for the enemy's movement, of course.

Why not make it even more accurate, especially since it would be so easy to implement. That's the point, it is not enough to position the cursor and move forwards, I have to continually adjust the cursor to not miss the target, which wouldn't be necessary when implementing my suggestion. Not complaining, it's just an idea.

 

[Syllabear3]

I get it now... but wouldnt it be more dificult or slow to use it? I think that yes. Even if right now seems like more dynamic. And there are some kind of attacks that need the moves of your cursor...

 

[Jimmini]

Not at all. Like I said, the movement of the cursor would work exactly the same as right now, with the same speed, direction and precision. Only difference being that the camera has no effect on input anymore. I don't understand what you mean by "dynamic", in this context. I'm not saying that the cursor should be physically simulated like an object, if that is what you mean.

 

[bobchaos]

I think it's a good idea, but I've become used to the current cursor movements and can reliably poke people through a helmet visor, so I'd prefer it be made optional. The same thought had occurred to me when first playing tho.

In the meantime, try this: make a mental marker (or just overlay some transparent plastic sheet you can write on on top of your screen) of the position your cursor will be at after you move. It's not going to result in precise thrust yet due to your character first aiming low, then high, but it will help train muscle memory. It's also easier to start with the cursor behind and above your target and bring it back to the head as you move in. It sounds counter intuitive but it causes the thrust to start high and hit high.

Works for me anyhow, but either way I'd like to see your idea implemented as an option.

 

[Syllabear3]

Not at all. Like I said, the movement of the cursor would work exactly the same as right now, with the same speed, direction and precision. Only difference being that the camera has no effect on input anymore. I don't understand what you mean by "dynamic", in this context. I'm not saying that the cursor should be physically simulated like an object, if that is what you mean.

Because of this "the cursor stay at the same point *in the world*". Sounds complicated to me, i am used to how it works right now.
Is not even noticeable...

 

[Jimmini]

make a mental marker

Yeah, that's what I'm currently doing too. It mostly works, but it's weird to have to target the air to be able to later hit my actual target. I think this could be easily improved, at least I think it could, having consulted my humble imaginational capabilities. It just makes too much sense having the cursor in the same coordinate system than the target, when I think about it.

As for getting used to it, I don't see a problem there at all, should this actually work. Exanima is a game in which you have to get used to about every mechanic there is. From moving in combat, aiming attacks, weighting risks, paying attention to the environment, dealing with NPCs like real people to keep them friendly (quite scary sometimes), not killing everything in sight, ... and so on, even though it's still an unfinished prelude of an unfinished game and many things are yet to come. Getting used to a slightly differently behaving cursor, that actually makes your life easier, should be a rather small effort after having gone this far (I'm myself near 100h). I agree to having the option, though.

Another example that came to mind, to explain what I mean, is: When leaving the cursor still and holding A or D to dodge sideways, the character would circle around the cursor. As it is now, the character just walks sideways.

 

[bobchaos]

I got roughly 100h too but I picked up the spear quite early as a primary weapon in arena (until proper polearms are available that is). I now open most duels with a solid head poke, which is so effective it might be considered cheating (the AI doesn't always have time to raise his shield/weapon). That's probably the best way to practice your aim, in the very first second of a match you basically know exactly what's going to happen: Your opponent will raise his weapon and take a step forward, so you can keep reproducing the same thrust every match in a somewhat controlled environment.

Anyhow, I suspect your method of handling the cursor might be very confusing at first as it differs from how you'd expect a cursor to react in basically any other game or program. I'd have to try to say for sure how it handles.

 

[Jimmini]

I now open most duels with a solid head poke

Haha, yeah that's what I'm doing too... Mostly an instant kill with a polearm, but I still prefer simple spears for the most part. Got my first novice Beast kill by getting lucky and repeatedly hitting his/it's face with the spear at the start.

might be very confusing at first as it differs from how you'd expect a ... in basically any other game

This. Is. Exanima!

Seriously though, it took me hours of getting used to the character-relative movement in combat. But I knew instantly that it's by far the best way. People who want to play the same games, with never more than just slightly different assets, over and over again and avoid all learning of new things, are in the wrong place here anyway. I doubt anyone who enjoyed Exanima so far would complain about this if it actually works.

 

[Jimmini]

So, I thought about it a bit more and I think the best position of the cursor in world coordinates would be always at about waist height (like it can already be seen now when rotating the camera), without considering the nearby geometry.
That way, however, the cursor would still move at a different speed than the geometry that it points at, in terms of screen coordinates, when the camera moves, due to perspective scaling. This would be only a (minor) problem when thrusting and could optionally be mitigated by positioning the cursor at it's actual "geometry aware" target only during thrusts (the mouse button is held down). That would probably be very irritating in most other circumstances.
Even more precise would be locking (but still allowing manual re-targeting) the cursor to the thrust's target completely, as soon as the mouse button is pressed.

I hope this is of any help to whoever would (hopefully) implement this. Just wanted to give some ideas.


Next we could talk about my characters constantly stumbling over the Beast's feet... and their own.