The Leather Bustier---er, I mean Vest

Bullethead

Member
So, after all this time, instead of looking at just the damage resistance dots of pieces of armor, I started reading the fine print at the bottom. And I noticed that the leather vests I get in the arena, whether as original equipment or looted off the vanquished, all claim to be gender-specific, such as:

Gender-Specific Armor.jpg

Yet despite the gender-specific text, anybody can wear the things, and when a guy wears girl armor, it conforms to the male physique. At least it seems to. Surely something like this would have a hard time fitting arouind most male physiques.

So what's up? Is gender-specific armor planned, or should the gender-specificity in the text for all leather vests be removed?
 

Iscandar

Member
Yet despite the gender-specific text, anybody can wear the things, and when a guy wears girl armor, it conforms to the male physique. At least it seems to. Surely something like this would have a hard time fitting arouind most male physiques.
You can snag a suit of armor from someone a foot shorter than you and still have it fit perfectly. Everyone knows that this would be impossible, but no one cares.

I'm actually very pleased with how clothes and gender specifity have been dealt with. Yes, a man can technically wear women's clothing. It's not like most RPGs where you're outright banned from using them. Instead, you'll most likely choose NOT to wear the women's clothing BECAUSE it looks completely wrong on you. Or perhaps your character is a transvestite (for some reason). Or maybe you're a jokester planning on walking into a tavern wearing it to see what happens. I'm fine with this.
 

Bullethead

Member
I'm actually very pleased with how clothes and gender specifity have been dealt with. Yes, a man can technically wear women's clothing. It's not like most RPGs where you're outright banned from using them. Instead, you'll most likely choose NOT to wear the women's clothing BECAUSE it looks completely wrong on you. Or perhaps your character is a transvestite (for some reason). Or maybe you're a jokester planning on walking into a tavern wearing it to see what happens. I'm fine with this.
Cannot wait for the dresses to be implemented...
I was actually more pointing out that there don't seem to be any male-specific or even unisex leather vests. The one you can choose to wear at the start of an expert arena session says it's for girls, and so do those you can loot in the arena (which are all worn by girls). Further, AFAIK it's only the leather vest that has this, everything else being gender-neutral. This struck me as a bit odd. Why single out the leather vest for this treatment?

But as to your points, sure, I can see the role-playing aspects of cross-dressing, although for that to have any real significance in the game (instead of just in the player's own mind), the NPCs would all have to have their own personal views on the propriety of cross-dressing and also a chance to see through the disguise, over and above their normal workload related to their actual game function. If the NPCs don't have these features, then cross-dressing is, in actual game terms, an empty gesture. But OTOH, it's only worth the dev's time to implement such features if a significant portion of the player base intends to cross-dress fairly often (or is forced into it by an inexplicable absence of male-specific leather vests :D).

Which brings us to other aspects of game design. I'm a big fan of unisex, "one size fits all" clothing in games. Everybody can wear anything without needing it tailored. This is not only convenient for the player but also realistic. After all, back in the day, most folks knew how to sew and carried little sewing kits on long trips for emergency repairs to their clothing, so were capable of making minor alterations themselves. And also back in the day, there wasn't anything like gender equality so the odds of finding female-specific armor was slim to none. Essentially all armor was made for men but could be worn by the relatively few historical women into such activities, so was "unisex" by default. This "unisex" system translates well into games made in today's more egalitarian society, where there are way more female warriors running around, without having to increase game development costs and runtime overhead by including 2 gender-specific versions of most items. And yes, having hard-coded gender-specific items has always irked me due to the loot RNGs always seeming to go against my character's gender, no matter which I was playing :).

However, the unisex system is based on the assumption that everybody out actively adventuring will be wearing trousers. Which seems logical enough, given that you don't see women these days wearing dresses in physically active work and sport, although that's a modern phenomenon, a product of the greater gender equality of today. Back in the days of strict gender roles and associated costume, women usually wore dresses/skirts even in such activities:



So I hope @Faelivrin's dreams come true :). Although a sidesaddle might be needed if riding horses becomes a thing.
 

Faelivrin

Insider
If we also get costume parties or masquerade balls in Ardent's castle i know a few that would totally go like this.
 

NachoDawg

Member
the devs are seemingly going for a gamified "it should make sense" rule. Having a women-designed clothing that a guy can barely fit on for a armor benifit, or vice versa, makes enough video game "sense" to me without having to include sewing kits or size codes.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
The vests aren´t a particular bad example for me. Yes, they are more suited for females, but given that they are closed with buckles, there is some leeway so a bulkier person can wear them. They are, however, still clearly tailored for women, most noticably the chest area which is cut out for cleavage.

A more serious offender, in my eyes, are the thighhigh boots. While men historically did wear over-the-knee boots at some point, the one we see ingame are clearly more tailored for the female form and very close fitting. There really is no way an average sized man should be able to wear the boots he just looted from a woman other than gameplay convenience.

While I personally would support different armor sizes (from perfect fit to reduced effectiveness to unwearable), I see that this would likely hinder the enjoyment of most people. However I think that little flavor texts like this go a long way to aknowledge the fact that not every piece of equipment is fit for everyone (and thus further the world´s plausibility) without restircting gameplay at all.
 
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Bullethead

Member
A more serious offender, in my eyes, are the thighhigh boots. While men historically did wear over-the-knee boots at some point, the one we see ingame are clearly more tailored for the female form and very close fitting. There really is no way an average sized man should be able to wear the boots he just looted from a woman other than gameplay convenience.
The thing is, though, that because Exanima/SG have the plastic physique system, whether your character can wear something or not should be based not so much on gender but more on how closely your physique matches that of the original wearer. It would be cool if the game actually did things that way, including adjusting the item's stats (and encumbrance) for things that you're just barely able to put on but don't fit very well. But OTOH, this would actually tend to restrict freedom to play with an abnormal physique because little if any loot would fit them and they'd have to shop at large or small specialty stores :).
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
The thing is, though, that because Exanima/SG have the plastic physique system, whether your character can wear something or not should be based not so much on gender but more on how closely your physique matches that of the original wearer. It would be cool if the game actually did things that way, including adjusting the item's stats (and encumbrance) for things that you're just barely able to put on but don't fit very well. But OTOH, this would actually tend to restrict freedom to play with an abnormal physique because little if any loot would fit them and they'd have to shop at large or small specialty stores :).
... or at least bring the stuff they find to a tailor or an armorer to refit it. I fully agree with you here, and I think it would be a really interesting mechanic - but I have accepted that I will never convince the majority of players of this idea.
 
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But OTOH, this would actually tend to restrict freedom to play with an abnormal physique because little if any loot would fit them and they'd have to shop at large or small specialty stores :).
It is not necessary to spend all money in the stores. For example, Plate Cuirass is suitable to almost any complexion due to adjustable leather straps. The same with the bracers and greaves.

BTW, I remember that Tony has good point for the whole weapon/scabbard/armor size fitting (Gameplay / Weapon sheath on the character?):
If we're going to be picky about scabbard sizes then shouldn't we also be concerned about wearing armor that hasn't been properly fitted? I think both of these scenarios fall into the category of not fun when you have to pay a craftsman to fix every sheath and piece of armor you find. It just adds an unnecessary grind which stops you from what you want to be doing to constantly hunt down a craftsman then wait several hours for your item to be fixed.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
It is not necessary to spend all money in the stores. For example, Plate Cuirass is suitable to almost any complexion due to adjustable leather straps. The same with the bracers and greaves.
Maybe with a simple breast plate, and with lots of padding worn underneath. But even these things can seriously hinder you when they dont fit correctly. And greaves are actually some of the worst offenders. A pair of greaves which doesn´t fit your leg properly will drive you crazy - it wont stay in place, slide down and press on your foot and your ankle joint... trust me, I´ve been there. And bracers just tend to get in the way all the time unless they´re part of a complete arm set or very well made. Unless they´re custom, I´d prefere mail sleeves.


BTW, I remember that Tony has good point for the whole weapon/scabbard/armor size fitting (Gameplay / Weapon sheath on the character?):
It would not be fun for him. I would enjoy it; but I would also enjoy the neccesarity for food and drink which hardly anyone does. Simply because it adds to the believability of this world and can be a vehicle to great storys: Like the one time I got lost underground and had to lick the moisture off the walls to stay hydrated... and so on. But I know that I´m with the minority here.
 
I'm afraid I have to repeat what I said in another thread, but I would agree with fitting armor only if it is not required, that is, for example, you can put gambeson which is slightly larger than yours, but you will be 5-7 % less maneuverable.
Exanima/SuiGeneris have too much equipment (suitable for fitting to a character), the same Venetica didn't contained a dozen of armors, so that the process of its' fitting did not bother the player.
Here - I don't know, don't know...

For the primary needs - if even not counting the negative opinion of the developers - it seems to me, this is not a game where it's good to be implemented as main (or one of primary) feature.
Just imagine - as an experienced hoarder, I'll fill at least half of my backpack with food and water (believe me, it was checked by Mount&Blade) ...And if take the temperature settings, I need a couple of pack mules to my wardrobe... and guardians for this caravan... and servants - to run to the city artisan to fit well my stuff ... and courtesans - a lot of courtesans (well, just to not get me bored while I'm waiting for my new cuirass fitted...)!
 

Bullethead

Member
Maybe with a simple breast plate, and with lots of padding worn underneath. But even these things can seriously hinder you when they dont fit correctly. And greaves are actually some of the worst offenders. A pair of greaves which doesn´t fit your leg properly will drive you crazy - it wont stay in place, slide down and press on your foot and your ankle joint... trust me, I´ve been there. And bracers just tend to get in the way all the time unless they´re part of a complete arm set or very well made. Unless they´re custom, I´d prefere mail sleeves.
There's also the question of needing the necessary undergarments. A lot of plate pieces were designed to be tied onto a gambeson/arming jacket. So if you don't have that, you might not be able to wear certain bits of armor at all.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
I'm afraid I have to repeat what I said in another thread, but I would agree with fitting armor only if it is not required, that is, for example, you can put gambeson which is slightly larger than yours, but you will be 5-7 % less maneuverable.
Exanima/SuiGeneris have too much equipment (suitable for fitting to a character), the same Venetica didn't contained a dozen of armors, so that the process of its' fitting did not bother the player.
Here - I don't know, don't know...

For the primary needs - if even not counting the negative opinion of the developers - it seems to me, this is not a game where it's good to be implemented as main (or one of primary) feature.
Just imagine - as an experienced hoarder, I'll fill at least half of my backpack with food and water (believe me, it was checked by Mount&Blade) ...And if take the temperature settings, I need a couple of pack mules to my wardrobe... and guardians for this caravan... and servants - to run to the city artisan to fit well my stuff ... and courtesans - a lot of courtesans (well, just to not get me bored while I'm waiting for my new cuirass fitted...)!

It´s okay if you wouldn´t like it, and you very likely have the devs on your side. I know about the downsides, but I´m also sure I would enjoy those features regardless. :)


There's also the question of needing the necessary undergarments. A lot of plate pieces were designed to be tied onto a gambeson/arming jacket. So if you don't have that, you might not be able to wear certain bits of armor at all.
Good point. Another reason why it´s unlikely that the devs will delve deeper into these mechanics.


All I´m realistically asking for is that the game at least acknowledges that not every piece of equipment fits everyone perfectly, which would already set it above other RPGs in that reagrd. Wheter they do this through flavor text (like the leather vest example) or by adding a point of encumbrance here and there, as long as it´s at least slightly present in the game I´ll be happy.
 
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