Why I haven't backed Sui Generis (yet)

[Komuflage]

The choices are stupid and you shouldn't fool yourself by thinking that this game is some sort of refined experience for only the truest of RPG players.

Well this depends on how you see it. A normal game cost like 60$ doesn't it? An then you get only the game.
Here you get alpha/beta access as well, or you get the videos.
So you're getting more than you would from a normal game, hence I don't understand how that can be stupid.

There's been what, six updates with actual content shown? Probably more, but that's what it seems like. Maybe you're mistaking me for a guy who goes around crying about alphas, but that's not the case.

Communication mustn't be in the form of a update.

There are hundreds of threads on this forum, and the dev participate in quite a few of them.
This mean you have to look around a bit, but saying they don't communicate is just false.
As an example, Madoc has almost 300 posts on this forum.

 

[Empire²]

Also, "there has been no real communication"?

This is something brought up far too often and is just dead wrong. The amount of communication is quite massive, more sizeable than you think, but only if you were to watch the forum more closely you would find the communication. The problem people have, which I admit to being a valid concern even though phrased in an awfully wrong way, is that there's no coordinated communication.

Besides the original Dev Quote thread, any sort of quote by the developers concerning features and mechanics is spread out far across a lot of different threads and subforums. Often lost in a sea of responses or in a thread which is quickly pushed to the bottom of the first page, there is information for you if you're willing to look for it, which you apparently aren't. That's fair enough, but make sure you don't subconsciously invalidate the communication because it's uncoordinated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting dev posts together into a formatted thread, yet I simply do not have the time. A lot of us that contribute to the forum threads often will get alerts from new posts in watched threads which will often include devs joining in on a conversation to clear up confusion or elaborate on certain points made during videos or forum announcements. Even if you were to look at the forums from an outside perspective, checking every thread you see pop up, you will miss a bunch of useful information when there's no alerts telling you any possible updates on a thread.

If you're not someone who goes around crying for alphas, try joining in on the discussions that are to be had here, rather than criticise the, from your apparent perspective, lack of developer input into the community. If you contribute to discussion in an active and positive way, you will find we'll get a lot more done than if we all were to sit grumpily in the corner sipping tea and watching everything take place through the actions of others.

As far as the donation tiers go, I have nothing to add. Pretty much everything has been said, and I have nothing factual to add to that other than our financial situations. Some of us will always be sort of tight on money, while others will always have more to spend. The combination of my interests and passion for physics-based games, fantasy and stories, along with the fact that I live with my parents and have a part-time job, contributes to me saying I can afford to spend a lot of money on an unfinished project, because I have no expenses and it's something I'm passionate about. We all have different situations, so whether you choose to spend your money or not is completely up to you, as well as your opinion on whether or not you're satisfied with what your money will get you.

 

[Scarecrow]

Also, "there has been no real communication"?

This is something brought up far too often and is just dead wrong. The amount of communication is quite massive, more sizeable than you think, but only if you were to watch the forum more closely you would find the communication. The problem people have, which I admit to being a valid concern even though phrased in an awfully wrong way, is that there's no coordinated communication.

Besides the original Dev Quote thread, any sort of quote by the developers concerning features and mechanics is spread out far across a lot of different threads and subforums. Often lost in a sea of responses or in a thread which is quickly pushed to the bottom of the first page, there is information for you if you're willing to look for it, which you apparently aren't. That's fair enough, but make sure you don't subconsciously invalidate the communication because it's uncoordinated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting dev posts together into a formatted thread, yet I simply do not have the time. A lot of us that contribute to the forum threads often will get alerts from new posts in watched threads which will often include devs joining in on a conversation to clear up confusion or elaborate on certain points made during videos or forum announcements. Even if you were to look at the forums from an outside perspective, checking every thread you see pop up, you will miss a bunch of useful information when there's no alerts telling you any possible updates on a thread.

If you're not someone who goes around crying for alphas, try joining in on the discussions that are to be had here, rather than criticise the, from your apparent perspective, lack of developer input into the community. If you contribute to discussion in an active and positive way, you will find we'll get a lot more done than if we all were to sit grumpily in the corner sipping tea and watching everything take place through the actions of others.

As far as the donation tiers go, I have nothing to add. Pretty much everything has been said, and I have nothing factual to add to that other than our financial situations. Some of us will always be sort of tight on money, while others will always have more to spend. The combination of my interests and passion for physics-based games, fantasy and stories, along with the fact that I live with my parents and have a part-time job, contributes to me saying I can afford to spend a lot of money on an unfinished project, because I have no expenses and it's something I'm passionate about. We all have different situations, so whether you choose to spend your money or not is completely up to you, as well as your opinion on whether or not you're satisfied with what your money will get you.

This. Just read it. Im not sure why there is still so much confusion and negativity regarding these subjects. And for the billionth time, it is covered by one of the forum members (And on several other occasions, the devs themselves). If people could just use a couple of minutes to actually search around a tiny bit on the forums they would find many valid responses regarding these "issues".

 

[fajaballa]

I'm not gonna try to change anyone's mind but my point still stands. I really want the choices for contributions to be more open, but on this upcoming holiday, I think I'll probably end up making a higher contribution. Regardless, I think it should be changed. Like I said, I want to pay for just one copy of the game with videos and alpha access. That might sound kind of picky, but it seems like a fair thing to do.

 

[Oona]

I'm not gonna try to change anyone's mind but my point still stands. I really want the choices for contributions to be more open, but on this upcoming holiday, I think I'll probably end up making a higher contribution. Regardless, I think it should be changed. Like I said, I want to pay for just one copy of the game with videos and alpha access. That might sound kind of picky, but it seems like a fair thing to do.

Kickstarter doesn't allow pledges to be mix and match, and anyway, as you have also said this is a contribution. You're essentially donating for the development and improvement of the project, not pre-ordering what you like. If that's what you want to do, then great, but don't expect anything else.

And it's not a fair thing to do. Everyone has pledged since last year with the current pledge system, changing it to match your needs is not only not possible but unfair.

 

[Kosac]

Richgar: i have worries to.. so i pledge only basic.. i just watching this forum and read spam from contributors.. no theads about.. we are working on this and what you think about this and this.. just silence

 

[tiny lampe]

Richgar: i have worries to.. so i pledge only basic.. i just watching this forum and read spam from contributors.. no theads about.. we are working on this and what you think about this and this.. just silence

Even though your passive-aggressive attitude is irratating and belittling the messages from other members by calling them spam comes across as rude...your contribution is still appreciated. It would be helpful if you made an effort to be more politically correct however. And no, putting a smiley after claiming that the developers tell us nothing about their progress doesn't make the claim any less aggravating. Also, the claim is false. Go here for the 'we are working on this' thread: http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/postponement.1103/
For the 'what you think about this and this' threads...please wait for the first alpha in February.

 

[Kosac]

i dont want be rude.. sorry
and yes we have one information from postponement topic.. but iam as contributor in other projects and there is comunication realy better, this is true.. i am looking forward to February and hope in more info coverage from devs.. it is only for the good of the project and getting more people, more money how much new contribution was last week? <10? :/

 

[Empire²]

The problem with a lot of projects are, in the case of games, that they don't really push any limits. A lot of Kickstarters are for games in a well-established genre, and are aiming to use an existing style and mechanics. Adding to that the amount of people that sometimes work on these projects, it makes the individual work seem a lot less daring to me (No offence to any developers out there, of course). Games like Project Eternity, which is essentially a Baldur's Gate remake, 2d platformers and puzzle games and not to mention the amount of tower defence-esque games out there, are all striving to be the newest and best addition to something that already exist.

Sui Generis, while at heart a true cRPG, has to build mechanics and an entire engine off of conceptions that are still quite new to the industry. And I know it sounds like I'm stepping on my soapbox again, but that's the truth of it. Bare Mettle aim to release a game, which, as it looks right now, will set the bar for any core RPG game in the future. However, it doesn't live off of Fable's Hack 'n Slash concept, or WoW's D20 combat style. Those are all crafts that various billion-dollar corporations have perfected over the course of about 30 years of video games. Bare Mettle, on the other hand, a developer that, for size comparison, could go on a company excursion in an SUV, have to not only build an entire engine and gameplay mechanics from the ground up, using nothing but the tools they have been given and the vision they have in mind, but also try to sharpen all of that to absolute perfection.

That doesn't mean Sui Generis will be the best game ever. Heck, if you ask me, I can already see the comments: "This is like Sumotori with swords. They should make an arcade mode in this!". Physics-driven games are incredibly tough to make, especially when you're trying to make something worth more than two hours of playtime. Nobody wants to have an epic prologue, with a stunning cutscene accompanied by harrowing narration, and drop in the game playing a character that flails around like a ragdoll character. It has to feel like something more than a Fruit Ninja clone, where you draw circles around your character with the cursor and rack up points like it's a pinball machine.

Lastly, and I've said this so many times, is the correlation between communication and game quality. When there's no version of the game accessible to the public yet, community feedback comes a lot smaller, namely with things like videos, trailers and screenshots. While some feedback will prove very valuable, a lot of it is based on some sort of prejudice as to how the game will handle from video footage. Bare Mettle choose to, rather than give us a daily essay on what has been added to the game, hammer away at Sui Generis to make it as enjoyable and presentable as possible when the Alpha hits. I'd be content with them now announcing the Alpha won't hit until 2015, because I just want the best possible game. Yes, you're entitled to certain things and the road to set goals has not proven as smooth as both Bare Mettle and we had hoped, but there's no need to rub it in.

I'm not demanding people to stop throwing tomatoes at BM for promises unkept (This doesn't refer to your case, you've been quite amicable about this!), but I just pray people understand that it's hard working on something when you're being pelted with various spoilt fruits and vegetables, and every change you make to the balance between communication and progress just leads to a lot more booing.

 

[AkaMushroom]

This game looks awesome , all i have dream about a game .

 

[BigT2themax]

How did I not see this thread before? So much discussion! And a few bits of drama, too!

Even though your passive-aggressive attitude is irratating and belittling the messages from other members by calling them spam comes across as rude...your contribution is still appreciated. It would be helpful if you made an effort to be more politically correct however. And no, putting a smiley after claiming that the developers tell us nothing about their progress doesn't make the claim any less aggravating. Also, the claim is false. Go here for the 'we are working on this' thread: http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/postponement.1103/
For the 'what you think about this and this' threads...please wait for the first alpha in February.

I think maybe the apparent passive-agressiveness and rudeness was caused by a mistranslation or a misunderstanding. It doesn't look like Kosac's first language is English, and I think maybe they just picked the wrong words for what they were trying to convey?

Anyways, about the development communication thing...

One thing I think may affect the updates and whatnot is that the devs are kinda just focusing on the backbone of the game and it's engine right now. As such, they'd rather not dedicate time to making content to show people, because they decided it'd be better to lay the groundworks of the engine in such a way that adding new content is easy to do without breaking everything else.

The trouble with the devs focusing a bit more on the inner workings of the engine rather than making new bits of equipment or UI parts or whatever is that it's really hard to actually show what's changed via videos or pictures, because it's all changes that are hidden away in the inner workings of the game.

I recall that the developer at Wolfire Games (the guys who are making Overgrowth) made a blog post about this, and how the weekly videos he was doing was affecting what he was working on, making him focus more on adding features he could show in the videos rather than work on the not very obvious, but more important details of the engine. I'd rather Bare Mettle just focus on the most important aspects of the engine and the AI and the dynamic storyline and get that working before they start doing the parts of the game they can show off.

But, I will agree that it's a bit hard to find the posts that BM make, since they're really hidden in the forum, more often than not. It might make people who've come to the website looking for more info from the devs get the impression that they're not talking much, and that's not exactly ideal.

Maybe the forum could benefit from some way of automatically collecting all the posts made by the devs and providing links to the specific comment within the context of the thread? As in, an easy-to-access, obvious menu that is updated automatically (when the devs make posts in the forum) with a link to said post within the thread? Maybe have the list just show the post, and provide the link to the post as it is in the thread at the bottom of each list entry?

That way the devs can continue to interact really well with the community in just the same way, and people won't have to scour the forums if they just want to find news from the development team.

As for not having access to dev videos or whatever tier of stuff you want, you should keep in mind you can add money to your contribution bit by bit. So, if you add like, two or three pounds that you would have otherwise used for lunch like, once a week (or just whenever you can spare it), it'll total up and eventually you'll have access to the £60 tier, and everything's awesome.

Of course, now that I think about it, I really shouldn't be speaking about this without thinking about people's individual specific situations, this is really ignorant and stupid of me... But hey, it's just an idea to consider, yeah?

 

[AkaMushroom]

Instabuy when released

 

[Rod_Lightning]

Instabuy when released

You can buy it right now which would support the devs. It's also less pricy right now.

 

[Fakotankobanko]

Hey OP they did NPC dynamics back in Ultima 7 days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_VII:_The_Black_Gate

im not sure how much dynamics you want, but realize if you make AI for real, they'll be intelligent enough to hijack your PC once you start the .exe.

this game I see as adding a whole new level to Ultima 7's gameplay, although im hoping for a free camera mode and optional skybox support. I realize it may not be part of the design but its always nice.
would open up the whole manual swing to funny/new angles be less deppressing.


the only thing I will say is having backed a ton of games on kickstarter most of them are disappointing me in a big way. but only because they havent delivered in the slightest anything from which they originally planned to release or even portrayed. Which if you read what you agreed when you pledge is legal. So its a sick joke, but I guess that is the world we live in. Having said that none of them were that expensive so it boggles the mind why they would deviate from their mock ups or prototypes and release half finished crap when they could have just made the game even limited to begin with.

having said that, if this game just releases the game with its physics based motion/ragdoll controlled top-down view cRPG game the modders can handle the rest. so I hope they know that. Getting a map editor out should be top priority. Games like Kenshi do it. So I wouldn't worry about not being able to sell this game atleast to the Morrowind fans. In fact, you can bet on the Morrowind mods for this game once its got any kinda map editor released.

 

[Komuflage]

having said that, if this game just releases the game with its physics based motion/ragdoll controlled top-down view cRPG game the modders can handle the rest. so I hope they know that. Getting a map editor out should be top priority.

You've to keep in mind that they may actually want to create the game.
Even if the "game" would probably be a success amongst the modding community, if they just released the game as it's with moding tools and a map editor. The game would probably get a lot of critique for not having the singleplayer part done yet (using ARMA3 as a recent example) And that will hurt sales once the game is completed.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

You've to keep in mind that they may actually want to create the game.
Even if the "game" would probably be a success amongst the modding community, if they just released the game as it's with moding tools and a map editor. The game would probably get a lot of critique for not having the singleplayer part done yet (using ARMA3 as a recent example) And that will hurt sales once the game is completed.

Releasing an engine with a map editor and modding tools is not a game. Remember that they went to Kickstarter to develop a game.

A goal we, the crowd, helped kickstart. We want to see this game made. The engine and all that is what brought us to throw our money at them.

 

[Komuflage]

Releasing an engine with a map editor and modding tools is not a game.

That's why I used quotation marks "game".

Remember that they went to Kickstarter to develop a game.

Read my first sentence again

 

[Rob]

The engine is quite possibly their most valuable commodity.

It would be great for the game to be opened up to the community for the purpose of creating mods. However, it's more important that:
(1) BM establish Sui Generis first so that they really take ownership and establish an identity; and
(2) They think very carefully about how the engine should be licensed.

Point (2) is actually quite important. Allowing modders to have complete freedom would be a wise move. However, releasing the engine to the community in a completely open-source no-holds-barred way might be suicide.

Thinking about it purely from BM's point of view... my thought is that modders should be allowed to create mods for Sui Generis. In order for that to happen, Sui Generis must exist as an established entity first. Importantly, the BM engine should not be released to the community in a way that other games can be made that BM have no control over - the creation of any other separate games should be licensed under a proper agreement.

 

[lvk]

@Rob If I can add to that, I believe BM licensing out the engine is one of their revenue streams right now.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

That's why I used quotation marks "game".



Read my first sentence again

Ah, yea. I was kinda enforcing your statements for that other dude, really

Shouldn't have quoted your post but eh.

- Rob: Totally.