This is what i tried to say about maps.

Arthur

Member
Yea, just put it in every game. Transform it all into minecraft.

But for real, this "generation" is nothing more than randomly placed templates. Exanima is a solid nice looking functional organism, prosedural generated games are like Frankenstein. They work, but created from separate not related to each other parts and are ugly. This topic was discussed lots of times, I've got almost nothing to add here.
 

Syllabear3

Member
It is better than walking through the same places 100 times, pathetically knowing every corner.
Are you afraid to get lost?

It can be applied to mobs, bosses with diferent strength and equipament... it keeps your interest in the game.

Not sure why are you talking about this "generation", when we had that in d2. Not sure if in others isometric games but i am sure that yes.
 

Hartigan

Member
Sylla, I believe there were talks in this forum, perhaps even dev quotes (I can look for them later, if you wish), of procedurally generated weapons. In this case, I find it very interesting, I'm curious to see what it will offer. Equipment and such is something that can benefit from it, yes.

But I disagree with you when it comes to maps. The following is a completely personal opinion:

Not everything needs to be handmade, but having procedurally generated maps does have it's disadvantages. You hardly see the same level of polish as the Exanima levels, for example. I wouldn't mind if the devs used a procedurally generated map, made it a "fix map" and then added their own details afterwards. It could be indisthinguishable from maps made from scratch if done that way.

Exanima (and perhaps even Sui Generis when it's out) is amazing when it comes to atmosphere. I know it means "less content", but I prefer quality over quantity, and the whole BM team is certainly doing a pretty good job already.

I do understand your point, but I kindly disagree.
(Though perhaps it could be added as an optional side of it. Look for "Chalice Dungeons" from Bloodborne, in case you're wondering what I mean)
 

Arthur

Member
I agree about weapons since undead could have randomly picked anything else from their surroundings each time. As I said, the main problem about procedural generation is, you won't believe me, repetitiveness. It will contain (as I see it for Exanima) some premade hallways, rooms, corridors, etc. You'll find yourself in this kind of situation: "Ough, look, today I got a complete different world, it was made of hallway_B, then came two rooms: room_A and room_G, and after that corridor_H appeared! Last day it was completely another game! It was room_B, hallway_C and room_G." That's the first point.

The second main thing is story. Not the one you are being forced to follow, happily it's not. I am saying that things are on their places because they make sence. Because there was past in the place you came into. What you see are consequences of an actions took place in the days left long ago. Procedural generation would destroy this main aspect of the game 100%. As I remember, Madoc once noticed that creating maps is not a big deal, but creating game features and interaction mechanics for these maps is.
 
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Roryn

Member
All very interesting. I agree with sentiments from both sides, I'd say, but a meta-game procedural dungeon generator for Exanima would be a pretty cool thing. Like the arena, only with dungeons.
 

Syllabear3

Member
Sylla, I believe there were talks in this forum, perhaps even dev quotes (I can look for them later, if you wish), of procedurally generated weapons. In this case, I find it very interesting, I'm curious to see what it will offer. Equipment and such is something that can benefit from it, yes.

But I disagree with you when it comes to maps. The following is a completely personal opinion:

Not everything needs to be handmade, but having procedurally generated maps does have it's disadvantages. You hardly see the same level of polish as the Exanima levels, for example. I wouldn't mind if the devs used a procedurally generated map, made it a "fix map" and then added their own details afterwards. It could be indisthinguishable from maps made from scratch if done that way.

Exanima (and perhaps even Sui Generis when it's out) is amazing when it comes to atmosphere. I know it means "less content", but I prefer quality over quantity, and the whole BM team is certainly doing a pretty good job already.

I do understand your point, but I kindly disagree.
(Though perhaps it could be added as an optional side of it. Look for "Chalice Dungeons" from Bloodborne, in case you're wondering what I mean)
Its okay.
I know that probably this been talked, im lazy to search it myself.

And about maps... i dont understand what are you trying to say with "level of polish" and "quality". Doesnt procedurally offer that? Not necesarly ALL map but some stuff can change.
I played exanima, the 4 levels, a few times and the game becomes boring because its ALL the same. I know this is just a test game, but if sui generis will be the same... same thing happened with pillars of eternity, great game and i enjoyed it a lot. But i played it just once because nothing changes! I dont remember well but, even items in the same place (as far i could remember). You cant feel that emotion of not knowing what awaits you in the next corner, like some kind of expectation and curiosity that pushes you to keep playing and find new stuff. Or that feeling of being totally lost in exanima, scared that something will jump on you any time, its lost because you know the map, entirely.

Rather than Procedural, I think it would be amazing to have a map editor. It would lead to a vast selection of community made levels to play.
That is amazing idea too. Like in w3, or now dota 2. People creates their own stuff, making the game eternal.
You got me there dude, awesome idea.

I agree about weapons since undead could have randomly picked anything else from their surroundings each time. As I said, the main problem about procedural generation is, you won't believe me, repetitiveness. It will contain (as I see it for Exanima) some premade hallways, rooms, corridors, etc. You'll find yourself in this kind of situation: "Ough, look, today I got a complete different world, it was made of hallway_B, then came two rooms: room_A and room_G, and after that corridor_H appeared! Last day it was completely another game! It was room_B, hallway_C and room_G." That's the first point.

The second main thing is story. Not the one you are being forced to follow, happily it's not. I am saying that things are on their places because they make sence. Because there was past in the place you came into. What you see are consequences of an actions took place in the days left long ago. Procedural generation would destroy this main aspect of the game 100%. As I remember, Madoc once noticed that creating maps is not a big deal, but creating game features and interaction mechanics for these maps is.
Not necesarly every time you log to play, but every time you create a character. I dont understand that thing you said about story... things can change their place and you still understand what happened.

And not ALL map needs to change, but maybe a side dungeon, a portal, that offers you a diferent experience every time you enter there.
For example Path of exile has a map system, that you can enter a portal and transport you to a random map that have been procedurally created, not only the map itself but the mobs that you modified their strength by changing the map options.


In short, to keep that feel of being lost and discover new things all the time in order to make the game durable, interesting and funny.
 
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Hartigan

Member
Not necesarly ALL map but some stuff can change.
That's exactly why I mentioned side-dungeons. Not sure if you played Bloodborne, but there was a similar system. While it did add a lot of variety, it was, somehow, boring and ignored by most players. Surprisingly, it became repetitive, and that's in a game that everything stays the same, only the drops change.

I personally don't like pure procedurally generated maps as much. If you play it enough, you start noticing the room and patterns more than the whole. But again, I'm that picky kind of player that likes to appreciate lore in the game design itself, not just scrolls.

I'll let you all discuss this further, I don't think I have much to add. Plus, I won't lie: Dungeon crawling is cool, but I love the game because of the oh so satisfying combat system, hehe
 

Anuri

Member
I think, they can do it a different way - give us a level editor and open steam workshop. I think this could give us unlimited gameplay.
 

Elaxter

Insider
I say no to full fledged procedural generation. Just look at No Man's Sky. It has the width of an ocean but the depth of a puddle. I don't want that to happen to Exanima.

The closest you're going to get to procedural generation is in the Arena.
 

bobchaos

Member
There's a time and place for procedural generated maps, and this ain't it :/ Exanima tells a lot of it's story through the environment if you pay attention. Mobs are where they are for a reason. Some places look thoroughly trashed, other look pristine, and there's explanation for it all.

That said, I guess it could make a secondary game mode like the arena, but I'd prefer to see the devs work on the SG NPCs than this.
 
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