There is nothing I can't kill because I am the hero

NOTHING! I am the hero and this right here is my destiny. Alright, perhaps I can't kill the five legged mullet-bearing minotaur-cyclops (guardian of the doom pit of horror and infinite hate) YET because I'm a level one infant, but you just wait til I've got through multiple multitudes of giant rats, put down the evil monkey-squirrel snakepigs and farmed the ever-spawning bandits of malfeasance - nothing will get in my way, for it is my DESTINY to beat anything the game DARES to present to me as a challenge.

Hello! This is my first thread. I am here to talk about a dream: a dream of not being the hero.

There is a saying in the video game industry: If this shit is too hard then the customer is going to cry "poo-poo". Perhaps that's not the saying, but it's undoubtedly something along those lines. We've been spoon-fed success - if there is a challenge, it is the natural course of events that the player will overcome it. Each and every obstacle is but a stepping stone to the next one.

Check this out, I've embedded a video in a post! Here is a promo video for Half-Life 2:

I was blown away when I first saw this. I was blown away when I watched it again and again. This segment didn't set up my expectations for a decent boss fight - it set up my expectations for an unwinnable fight, a struggle for survival.

The reality was otherwise. Fighting striders was possibly the greatest bore of the entire game - with unlimited supplies of rockets conveniently and consistently placed nearby it was just a tedious matter of poking out of cover, firing, hiding, reloading, repeating. But imagine what it could've been? Take the scene above, and imagine if one had no means of destroying it - fleeing through corridors and apartments amidst a crowd of panicked citizens, striders tearing up the building from the street below while combine are rushing up the stairs - being forced to the rooftop, only to hear the sound of a gunship closing in. What now?

When games readily grant us the tools to deal with all challenges we're cheated of the feelings of excitement, panic, joy and relief when against all odds we succeed. What if Sui Generis had a foe so powerful that only a handful of dedicated players ever defeat it? What if not everything was meant to be beaten? What if, although the game were accessible to all, it was up to each and every one to do what he can, rather than what is expected of him?

How many of us have spent hours trying to do what the developer never intended for us to do? And wasn't that just the best fun?
 

Fawz

Insider
You raise some legitimate concerns, and it has become a very nasty trend where the player must always be the hero and have the world revolve around him while the devs rework the whole universe to hold his hand and allow him to do everything (even in MMOs when you're alongside thousands of other 'Heroes' just like you)

Thankfully that doesn't look like it'll be the case at all for Sui Generis. In the game every single NPC is subject to the same game rules and world physics as you are. The player himself is just like any other human NPC for the exception that he can come back to life after death (Although not on the spot. It's quite complex).

The NPCs actually fight using the same reticle control system as the player, so there's no cheating there. There are however many NPCs that aren't human like you and therefore play by their specific race rules, which gives them advantages and disadvantages over you. The devs don't intend for you to be able to take on each and every challenge, at least not without arduous preparation and perfect execution. Although it doesn't mean you can't be ingenious and crush a very experienced and tough enemy using a rolling boulder or something equaliy creative and deadly. No one in the world is immune.

A very important thing to note is that Sui Generis is not like other isometric action games where character power and progression revolves heavily around numbers. This isn't Diablo where you gain levels that give you 100x times more health than you had when you started, or get epic loot that does 1000x times more damage than your starting gear did. You can get stronger by unlocking new skills (that revolve around utility and removing negative effects) and getting better quality gear that is easier to handle.

Here are some nice quotes by the Devs on the subject:
Difficulty scaling is something we're still not entirely sure about but it might take you a few play throughs before you can deal with some really hard fights. It's partly up to you how difficult the game is.
We intend many encounters in the game to be optional and extremely difficult to beat. Making a poweful character, multiplayer or getting some help from NPCs should be things you do in order to accomplish some really difficult things. Porky doesn't represent the hardest opponent you may face by any means, it is possible to beat him as is though you need a little luck and we believe shields may go a long way to making this easier. Note that shields have an entire skill dedicated to them and you will have few precious skills.
Better AI is definitely our preferred method of increasing difficulty. Hitting, parrying, dodging etc. is all down to physics and AI decisions. We hope that AI at its best can be competitive with a very skilled player. If we do introduce some kind of difficulty scaling it will definitely be along the lines of better AI, better equipment, harder / more opponents etc.
Edit: Found another really great post on the subject

Yes, in theory, on your first play through, you could accidentally knock a boulder off a cliff, inadvertently slaying one of the main antagonists, thus rendering the story arc (pretty much) redundant. This just isn't very likely though, in fact it is highly, extremely, super unlikely. As is your ability to just go about slaying everyone in the SG world. Some areas may contain characters/creatures that are way too much for you to handle even on your second or third play through.
 
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Komuflage

Insider
I really wanted to reply to this thread, as this is something I'm really interested in. However Faws got to it first :p Nonetheless, for the sake of discussion: I'm sick of the hand holding in today's games, even when playing on the hardest difficulty, most games are still easy. Luckily BM already said that there will be enemy's not easily defeated. Hopefully they really deliver on that point, and we get some optimal "bosses" that really require a "Elite" player to do his/her best.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
This is pretty much exactly what we're going for. Some poeple will probably dislike SG for it, not just the difficulty but the not telling you what to do, many people are probably very used to it these days. In my opinion being told what to do completely defeats the purpose of an open world RPG. I wanted to quote myself on a few things I've said about this before but I can't find what I'm looking for, there's a few very relevant things. Mostly along the lines of what @Fawz already quoted and how stuff is just not there for you to kill it, it's just there as part of the world and no one says you should be able to kill it.

One relevant quote:

"We won’t guide you, if you do something stupid like attack a castle or a group of thaumaturges on your own you’re just asking for it."
 

lvk

Insider
One relevant quote:

"We won’t guide you, if you do something stupid like attack a castle or a group of thaumaturges on your own you’re just asking for it."
That's exactly the quote I was looking for just two days ago! Where was it written down again?
 

Fawz

Insider
Older games like Ultima 7, or I think even Baldurs Gate have enemies that can destroy you and the town you are in, enemies that roam the lands and enemies you aren't meant to win against. I am hoping for open world maps that have creatures that you can hope to wound and then track down or wound at best. We should encounter things that make us run and things we run for help with. Would be a whole lot more immersive. I am also hoping for more dynamic AI so there isn't simply one huge "enemy" team, if we encountered a werewolf it shouldn't be on the same side as a ogre or something, just as undead wouldn't be allied to any bad humans but may obey a robed master throwing fire at you, because that IS their master. Or event dynamic linking of team so modders (one day) can make custom interactions and allies with infinite teams.
 

SergeDavid

Insider
I never knew my father, he was always off fighting the good fight as my mother use to say. I wish I could still go back to believing that he was a good man. I was raised on stories of his glories from my mom, how he was destined for something greater. Like killing one man can ever fix anything.

It didn't for me.

I resent him you know, for leaving us for his damned adventure. I tried to never show my hatred for him around my mother, even at the end she still loved the worthless man. So he dethroned the king and set a new one upon the throne, the world was saved from tyranny and everyone will prosper! Ha! That didn't stop the bandits called royal guards from raping my village. Taxes are justly due in this day of peace and freedom, my mother had to work herself to the bone to provide for a young boy, life didn't get better. Some hero he was, nothing changed except the clothes upon the bandits backs and what they called themselves.

The head guard Bruudy looked at my mom too much, saying that if we couldn't pay the higher taxes he'd take them out of us in another way. For three years he kept the village under his thumb never working a single day in that time, it was so easy to slit his throat while he slept during a hunting trip. I thought we where free and my mom would be safe, HA!

If only life was so kind, just another tax collector and more taxes to be squeezed in the name of greater security, more like another goon to guard his hide as he leeched our village. That's when I turned to the bottle, you see it doesn't mean a thing. Who cares if you're the hero if you can't even save your family.

Well my lad, its about time for your parents guards to be delivering your ransom, because my boy I've learned a thing or two from those stories about Quigan the Bold and no simple hero will be saving you today. Especially no apprentice to my old man.
 

XxBoDxX

Insider
I never knew my father, he was always off fighting the good fight as my mother use to say. I wish I could still go back to believing that he was a good man. I was raised on stories of his glories from my mom, how he was destined for something greater. Like killing one man can ever fix anything.

It didn't for me.

I resent him you know, for leaving us for his damned adventure. I tried to never show my hatred for him around my mother, even at the end she still loved the worthless man. So he dethroned the king and set a new one upon the throne, the world was saved from tyranny and everyone will prosper! Ha! That didn't stop the bandits called royal guards from raping my village. Taxes are justly due in this day of peace and freedom, my mother had to work herself to the bone to provide for a young boy, life didn't get better. Some hero he was, nothing changed except the clothes upon the bandits backs and what they called themselves.

The head guard Bruudy looked at my mom too much, saying that if we couldn't pay the higher taxes he'd take them out of us in another way. For three years he kept the village under his thumb never working a single day in that time, it was so easy to slit his throat while he slept during a hunting trip. I thought we where free and my mom would be safe, HA!

If only life was so kind, just another tax collector and more taxes to be squeezed in the name of greater security, more like another goon to guard his hide as he leeched our village. That's when I turned to the bottle, you see it doesn't mean a thing. Who cares if you're the hero if you can't even save your family.

Well my lad, its about time for your parents guards to be delivering your ransom, because my boy I've learned a thing or two from those stories about Quigan the Bold and no simple hero will be saving you today. Especially no apprentice to my old man.


What is this from?
 

Omenov

Insider
It's from an interview Madoc did with Forbes. To my knowledge it's the only interview the devs have done about the game.

It's a really good interview that goes a bit more in detail about the vision the Devs have for Sui Generis. Well worth a read, here's a link:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/11/28/an-interview-with-sui-generis-developer-madoc-evans/

Man they need to give Fawz a job in PR! He has all the good quotes! I get just as excited reading the devs stuff in Fawz context as I do the original devs post... 8) I get more excited about this game everyday.
 

Avramovic

Supporter
A suicide's a suicide and even if we're talking a mundane melee fight, 5 vs 1 is a suicide for that one guy (unless it's a paladin in full plate fighting a bunch of half-dead castaways armed with branches). Being smart enough to pick battles is what saves a player character, enables him to live to fight on another day and all that jazz.

There's a woman NPC in Ashlands, in "Morrowind", that had said one of my favorite quotes ever: "Go around trouble, leave it behind you... then return later, when you can give trouble a big surprise". I use that a lot in games, cuz I'm vindictive like that.
 

XxBoDxX

Insider
There's a woman NPC in Ashlands, in "Morrowind", that had said one of my favorite quotes ever: "Go around trouble, leave it behind you... then return later, when you can give trouble a big surprise". I use that a lot in games, cuz I'm vindictive like that.
Nice to see someone giving a shout out to Morrowind. You sir, receive a gold star.
 

XxBoDxX

Insider
NOTHING! I am the hero and this right here is my destiny. Alright, perhaps I can't kill the five legged mullet-bearing minotaur-cyclops (guardian of the doom pit of horror and infinite hate) YET because I'm a level one infant, but you just wait til I've got through multiple multitudes of giant rats, put down the evil monkey-squirrel snakepigs and farmed the ever-spawning bandits of malfeasance - nothing will get in my way, for it is my DESTINY to beat anything the game DARES to present to me as a challenge.
Have you ever played a game called Kenshi? Its pretty unforgiving and the whole idea is you're nobody. Unless you work really hard for it.
 
to Topic Starter:
Damned!
Man, you are genius!
Great ideas, great words. It's will be awesome, if in the game world will be some creatures, or better situations (because ever creature, ever man can be defeated, one way or another), that can't be defeated and overcome on your own just by the leveling. That may be it's will be so if you cooperate with someone, or if you make a ingenious plan :)
But i think that in Sui Generis situation you will face a lot of surprices) Because, how i was able understand, in this game we'll can see really original fight system based not only and not primaly on notorius "levels", "modificators" and s.o, but first of all on physics attributes of things and materials, and your skill of manipulating of your alterego.

This is pretty much exactly what we're going for. Some poeple will probably dislike SG for it, not just the difficulty but the not telling you what to do, many people are probably very used to it these days. In my opinion being told what to do completely defeats the purpose of an open world RPG. I wanted to quote myself on a few things I've said about this before but I can't find what I'm looking for, there's a few very relevant things. Mostly along the lines of what @Fawz already quoted and how stuff is just not there for you to kill it, it's just there as part of the world and no one says you should be able to kill it.

One relevant quote:

"We won’t guide you, if you do something stupid like attack a castle or a group of thaumaturges on your own you’re just asking for it."
Great! Applause! I love you!

Have you ever played a game called Kenshi? Its pretty unforgiving and the whole idea is you're nobody. Unless you work really hard for it.
Fine game, but how i hear it's only one man in team who working on the game. Sadly, but development going not so fast how we would like to :(
 

NachoDawg

Member
I'm extremely concerned about the "no handholding" philosophy. Because the lack of a sort of "narrator", it sounds like we won't be explained the limitations of the game. We are going to try and test what's possible, and definitely get disappointed when somethings not.
 

-Tim-

Insider
I'm extremely concerned about the "no handholding" philosophy. Because the lack of a sort of "narrator", it sounds like we won't be explained the limitations of the game. We are going to try and test what's possible, and definitely get disappointed when somethings not.
Or maybe you will be pleasantly surprised? Anyhow, people always test the limitations of any game (or social structure, or society, or anything). It's up to the game itself to make this a fun and rewarding thing to do.
 

NachoDawg

Member
Or maybe you will be pleasantly surprised? Anyhow, people always test the limitations of any game (or social structure, or society, or anything). It's up to the game itself to make this a fun and rewarding thing to do.

I'm definitely psyched for the game over a whole bunch of reasons, and i have faith. Just saying I hope this incredible feat the devs are attempting will work out, cus I haven't seen a working example in any other game yet
 
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