Romances in the latest Bioware titles.

[Algea]

I decided to create a new topic in this off topic section instead of continuing talking about it in Sui Generis general discussion forum.

Um, DA didn't have too bad romances.

For you as a male - maybe. For me as a female? Oh, I'm so fucking tired of being the one who does all the work. I mean they are men why don't they take the first step? Why should I express that I like them, why don't they take a more aggressive approach? Zevran could be nice but how one could share a bed (and life) with him knowing that he was sent to kill them? Alistair was like a spoiled baby, really annoying. The one I really liked was Loghain but he was shown as a traitor too. A proud man with solid principles was a supposed traitor. I sympathized with him so much stronger than with Alistair. At least he tried to do something.

DA2 gave as even more bland characters. Generic Fenris with his *tragic* past and cowardly personality (leaving just after sex - that's the way to impress a woman). Anders was simply awful, while he had the balls to make a first step he was so sleazy and revolting that I can't even imagine romancing him, Isabella - I'm not really interested in romancing females in games. I liked Varric (his personality) but he had Bianca and was more like a friend. I liked Sebastian - his romance while too romantic and, honestly, only hinted at was the most natural thing Bioware did in that game. The Arishok was nice too.


For men it is natural to pursue women and take the first step. Women are denied the chance to be pursued and have instead to do everything by themselves. I'd prefer saying 'no' to hearing 'yes' but unfortunately that's not how Bioware works.

 

[MowLiao]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. It is not "natural" for men to pursue women - this is all based on the ideas which come from tradition and is now wrongly sustained by media.

How is it wrong for a woman to ask a man out and take initiative? As a woman, there is no way you can expect to walk through the world and expect men to throw themselves at you because - guess what - you're not spineless! You can in fact take initiative and shape the world around you to create your life.

Also, you think you're "so fucking tired" of having to be the one to do all the work...? This is very unfair for them: They are therefore forced to view the idea of courting as wholly their responsibility, and so much pressure is put upon them to perform and take initiative. I really believe the responsibility is both the male's and the female's, so I don't think Bioware had to change a single thing for whether the person playing was a woman or a man (or other). After all, you are the main character, the leader of the group, and you're the person saying what does or doesn't happen.

Sorry. That twinged a nerve there... Gender inequality is not cool.

Anyway... about Dragon Age, I found the romance to be veeeery tacky. Humorous if I decided to go after a female, but all in all I decided that part of the game would never be realistic.

 

[Algea]

Oh God.

I looked over my message and I didn't see anything resembling that it is 'wrong for a woman to ask a man out and take initiative'. That's perfectly okay, people can do whatever they want to do and I won't give a f, but I want to be courted in games. Yes, I expect male companions to be assertive. I like it that way. So for me romances in the latest Bioware games were bad. That's all. I honestly don't want this thread to be a discussion about feminism, homosexuality, equality or something. This thread is just an explanation why I got no satisfaction from those romances.

They worked out for you? That's great, I didn't create this topic so everyone could agree with me. I'm all up to different opinions, but please don't try to read between the lines, there is nothing in here. It's all about why I found Bioware's latest romances bad.

ADD: Just to clarify something - when my protagonist is male I don't find it strange that my female companions don't jump me, I like to court them, because they are women and I'm a man (in a game). But when I'm a woman and they are men I like to be approached. It's just the way I am. Bioware games don't leave me a choice, I have to approach men by myself in there.

Don't start on Anders, I really, really hate his personality.

 

[MowLiao]

Ahh, fair enough, if that's what you prefer. Sorry if I came across as really pissed off - the generalisation of it being a man's role to court the woman instead of the other way round just really stuck out for me. I guess that's what happens when you have a transitioning transgender as a best friend, who's really into feminism and gender equality. x)

Dragon Age's romances didn't really work out for me, though. I basically left it alone and found it immensely tacky and unsatisfying. I think it's AI design which brought the flaw here for you. The designers didn't really take into account reactions towards the player, only options of what the player can do with NPCs.

Also I can't say much about the Dragon Age itself, because I only spent a week playing it before giving up. I went on an 8 hour dungeon crawl involving having to go back and fourth because I kept missing items - then I got lost/couldn't find the item. Gaaah, that frustrated me to no ends. =P

 

[The Hedge Knight]

The romances are entirely optional and are to be pursued at player interest. They are not a core game mechanic and they are not to be shoved down the players throat if he / she has no wish to pursue them. Having men stalking you and begging to love them would be annoying and hurt the experience of players who don't want to bother with the romance portion of the game.

 

[Algea]

The romances are entirely optional and are to be pursued at player interest. They are not a core game mechanic and they are not to be shoved down the players throat if he / she has no wish to pursue them. Having men stalking you and begging to love them would be annoying and hurt the experience of players who don't want to bother with the romance portion of the game.

That may be right but they are there, those pesky romances. They were one of the selling points at the time (maybe not for you, but they were promoted and I was looking forward to them). Therefore I think I have the right to discuss them especially if I find them lacking. As for other players? They are free to say that they liked the romances and describe why (if they want to). I just translated my own opinion.

Besides if your protagonist was male then you got Morrigan and Leliana and both of them were great. I got Zevran and Alistair and they were meh (personality and romance-wise).

I don't get why I can't tell about why I didn't like romances in DA. If someone like them the way they are - good for them. I don't and I want everybody to know the reason. This is a place for everybody to talk about everything they want to. I want those guys in game to stalk me, why can't I have at least one of them doing so? I want to romance Loghain (I'd even agree to stalk him) and I have the right to whine about it in public.

ADD:
Besides it was you who told me that DA romances weren't too bad. Then I answered why I thought they were. And you answered that 'men stalking female protagonists would be annoying and would hurt the experience of players...'. But we weren't talking about other people, we were talking about our impressions. Mine was bad yours wasn't, care to elaborate? I'm really curious because we're different and I want to hear your opinion.

And speaking about those who don't want to bother with romances - remember Anders in DA2. He was jumping the protagonist whatever their gender was quite aggressively, so it was pretty hard to not bother with romances. Yes, you could say no to him, but basically you'd have the option to do so in DAO too. So the devs had already decided that it'd be impossible to 'not bother with romances'.

 

[Rob]

I think that Bioware tried too hard to make it a big thing. Mass Effect 1 caused a really big stir in the media, and then all of a sudden it was a big deal and a selling point. I think that often the romance was put in forcibly, rather than simply letting it take it's place naturally. DA was probably more guilty of this than ME. Saying that, I'm all for innovation and trying something new. They certainly did that!

My memory isn't quite perfect, but from what I remember The Witcher did a much better job of making romance more naturally fit in with the game world. Sure, the "sex cards" in Witcher 1 were tacky, so lets ignore that. But I think that the important thing with The Witcher was that it was taken from the books, which had a very well thought-out world/mythology/atmosphere, and importantly romance played a valid part in that setting. Both actual romances and casual interactions were valid. Witcher 2 captured that better than the first one.

Don't get me started on "romance" in Skyrim - I have no idea why they thought that their implementation of "marriage" was appropriate.

One of the problems with the Bioware games was that there were limited options/characters. As is evident from previous posts, different people like different things/characters for their romantic interests. This is of course unavoidable in such linear games (despite the potential arguments for non-linearity). In more open-world non-linear games such as Sui Generis, if there is to be a romance option, then I hope it will be a mechanic based on NPC's (randomly generated) inherent personality dispositions, combined with building relationships. For example, some people might become interested in you after getting to know you; some studs may roam the land looking for a lay; some whores may advertise in bars, etc. etc. Such systems would probably fit in better with the medieval environment, rather than having pre-programmed romance sequences triggered by pre-programmed dialog options.

 

[Tony]

I enjoy reading all of your opinions but I don't really have much experience with romances in games. The only two series I can recall playing that had romances were Baldur's Gate and The Witcher. As Rob previously said, The Witcher 2 probably handled romances better than most games. However, I am not a good judge on this subject since I have not ever paid much attention to romances in games. As long as they didn't detract too much from the main game I was happy. If they helped you to actually care about a character then even better.

I suppose I'm just turning into a cold-hearted old man... what can I say

 

[Algea]

I own both games in The Witcher series but I haven't actually played them. I heard how amazing the games were many times and I've read the books, but I really can't play a predefined male character - I'm unable to associate myself with him, so no immersion for me. That was the only reason I didn't play Gothic series also. Besides I choose a female protagonist almost exclusively even if it is just a cosmetic choice.

I'll probably give the Witchers a go, but honestly speaking I didn't like the setting much. It's too close to home to comfort if I may say so. All this Slavic folklore.

It was nice reading your opinions though. It never fails to surprise me how different people are and how differently we perceive the same things! And it's also very nice to keep discussion flowing, we get to know each other much better than in any introductory thread.

 

[Rob]

I really can't play a predefined male character - I'm unable to associate myself with him, so no immersion for me.

If the "predefined" bit isn't too much of a problem, are you looking forward to Tomb Raider? I know there's been loads of hype, but I guess that's all down to marketing.

I'll probably give the Witchers a go, but honestly speaking I didn't like the setting much. It's too close to home to comfort if I may say so. All this Slavic folklore.

Sorry for keeping mentioning The Witcher - it just seems to keep randomly popping up whenever I think about some of the good aspects of games in recent years!

 

[Tony]

I participate in The Witcher forums and there are quite a few female fanatics who play and make mods for the game. Corylea (one of the moderators) is a lady who made two rather large mods for the first Witcher game where your main goal is to assist a female doctor (named Shani).

The Witcher games don't really feel very much like you're playing the role of Geralt as much as watching an interactive movie where you influence Geralt's actions. They are heavily story-driven RPGs. Unless an RPG lets me create a personalized character in a sandbox setting I don't really feel like I'm role playing as much as just directing a pre-defined character. Which worked well for The Witcher games (and I think this is one of the reasons why it's so easy for women to get into the games as well).

If you already own the games, Algea, I'd say at least give them a shot and see if you are able to enjoy them. They really are great games Some of my favorite characters in TW2 are the female characters! They did a great job in creating strong, memorable personalities.

 

[Rob]

If you already own the games, Algea, I'd say at least give them a shot and see if you are able to enjoy them. They really are great games Some of my favorite characters in TW2 are the female characters! They did a great job in creating strong, memorable personalities.

I concur. The female characters are definitely not to be messed with!

Although I do remember the Witcher 1 being quite hard to get into at first... it was quite difficult to get into the prologue first time round. It was quite a few hours down the line, probably half way through Chapter 1, that I started to realise just how much potential The Witcher had. It's really weird replaying the prologue after completing the game, because you see it in a completely different light.

 

[Tony]

People actually say the same about TW2. They play a few hours in the prologue and then quit before actually getting into the real meat of the game. My brother and one of my best friends both quit playing TW2 around this time

I called them both idiots and told them it would be the same as reading the cover of a book and then giving up before you even started reading it. But whatever; their loss! The sad thing is they both started playing Skyrim shortly afterwards and they loved it. I'm not saying Skyrim is a horrible game or anything (even though I chose not to play it) but games like Skyrim are a dime a dozen. The Witcher games are a unique experience. They have a lot of depth that a game like Skyrim will never have.

 

[Algea]

Haha, guys! Look how far this topic strayed from bad romances in Bio's games. Though I don't care much about staying on topic in my thread created in the off topic section if the conversation is interesting. But thinking about it: we started with mine 'Bio's romances are bad' and went to yours 'The Witcher games are great, you should definitely give them another go'. I'll write more about it tomorrow. For now I think I'm going to hit the sack, it's almost eleven pm here.

Anyway, thanks for the great conversation and for reawakening my interest in playing CDPR's games.

 

[Rob]

Always good to be put back on track! Lol.

 

[Algea]

Nope, you should stay on your track and I'll join you as soon as I can.

 

[Tony]

Sorry for derailing your thread a bit

Sleep well!

 

[Algea]

Haha guys, seriously, stop apologizing. It's silly to repeat that I didn't like you know what (one time is more than enough); and the conversation took a nice turn towards discussing good games instead of you know what quite naturally, so now it's officially a 'good games' thread with a deceiving header. Because I said so and I'm the Master of this thread!

I really should go now. Don't mind my online status - I hate to log off.

 

[Oona]

The only game that was successful in the romantic department is Dragon Age Origins. DA2 was sudden and terrible. Bioware 2 had only good options for male characters, as a female character I didn't like any of the romanceable characters.

@Algea: Zevran was assertive, and once you get to know him you'll find he has far more depth than you might first believe, and I liked that as a female character not everyone fell at my feet. I think as women we probably don't progress in the relationships we truly want because we've been planted with the idea that men should do all the work and shower us with our every desire. False.

I agree that female characters in videogames are not fleshed out enough. Most of the time they have the same animations as the male characters, and their speech is also extremely masculine. It doesn't feel like I'm playing a female character, rather a macho man who had extensive surgery done. Examples of this are in games like Saints Row 2, Demon's Souls, Dragon's Dogma and Guild Wars 2.

I hope in Sui extra attention will be given to the female characters. I don't imagine a man in a town will behave or speak the same way to a beautiful female character as they would to a male character, neither a woman to behave and speak like some macho man.

 

[the0thMonkey]

I hope in Sui extra attention will be given to the female characters. I don't imagine a man in a town will behave or speak the same way to a beautiful female character as they would to a male character, neither a woman to behave and speak like some macho man.

I think the problem was that not enough attention was given to characters in general. If the game worked when played as a male, it was probably because all the males were so generic it didn't make a difference. Hopefully in SG, ALL the characters will be detailed enough that there are no problems caused by this.