Question regarding disguises

[Sony Black]

Since we have seen the player to disguise him/herself as a guard in the new public video i would like to ask a few questions about that mechanic.

I would like to ask - would the other guards suspect something when the player would have run up to them? And how good does the disguise have to be - in the video it is perfect (even the belt etc.), but would you also have a chance with an imperfect outfit to "sneak" past the other guards?

(posted almost the same question in the KS comments, but i guess it'll get more attention here - though a answer on KS might be more visible for people who don't visit the forum)

 

[the0thMonkey]

This is a good question, and one I've been wondering about as well. What factors will affect disguise? and is disguising oneself always going to be a viable strategy or was it simply for the sake of the video's narrative?

Some factors that should affect disguises imo:

• Completeness of disguise (as mentioned above)
• Closeness to usual behaviour (also mentioned above). Had she been running, would the disguise have worked?
  
• Inherent "disguisability" of apparel. If the helmet had been open face, would the guards still have let her through?
• Size of the faction you're infiltrating. If the guards all knew each other (by name, gait, etc) it would be nearly impossible to disguise yourself.
• "Exclusiveness" of the faction. Would it be possible to pose as a new recruit? This might work easily enough for a group of bandits, but not at all well for a legion of elite guards.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment. To help make SG very open (and replayable), I would love for detailed disguise and infiltration mechanics to be implemented. Not as a top priority, but hopefully at some point in the future

What others factors should be taken into account?

 

[Komuflage]

I'm guessing about the Completeness of disguise, that if you infiltrate a bandit gang, any cloth similar to the cloths the gang uses, and in the same colour would do, however, for a higher ranked group, like a templar order, you would need to wear the Exact same outfit that the order uses.
And for the midle class guards; the standard Weapon, helm, chest and leg armour need to be the same, however, the boots, glows and belt might differ a bit. (Within some degree though, you cant come in red leather boots, if the guards wear black half plate ones)

 

[Empire²]

And what about disguising in a hooded robe, rather than a uniform?

Imagine you're a wanted criminal, and need to go into a city to advance a quest. The guards will arrest you on sight, considering your face is well known around that region. You could put on a hooded robe, and guards wouldn't be suspicious. That is, of course, only the case if there aren't guards checking every visitor in person. Rather, they wouldn't bother checking you once you're inside, and they're just patrolling or idling somewhere.

 

[fluffydino2000]

This is a very interesting point. I'm hoping that the behaviour is extended a lot. I.e if a guard is supposed to be on look out, and he strolls off to head into the castle, he would be checked out or told to go back to his post.

It would also be nice to let your character "observe" the person they want to become so they pick up their mannerisms and reduce likelihood of suspicion. And also, learn their accent and details to be used in dialogue. The acting part could be one of the hidden sub-skills in the game.

Also, if the physique is similar, pretty much coupled with gait.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Ok, I was just watching the Pre-alpha Gameplay video again, and I noticed that when equipping the guards armour, she doesn't un-equip her shoulder pads. The guard isn't wearing any shoulder pads, and yet she still pulls off the disguise. This confirms that disguises, in some cases, don't have to be perfect. It also therefore confirms that disguises will be checked for completeness, or that guards can overlook smaller details if they have no reason to look thoroughly.

 

[cosmo bozo]

Are there female guards in the game? ..there weren't any any that I noticed.
Would be a bit odd if a guard disguise worked for a woman when none of the guards were women (this could work the other way also in other circumstances, could lead to differing strategies depending on gender)

Agree with some of the posts above, a disguise shouldn't work with a small group who would all know each other..
and a hood should be sufficient in general public areas where hiding your own identity is all that is required (as opposed to impersonating someone else)

 

[Tessaya]

Are there female guards in the game? ..there weren't any any that I noticed.
Would be a bit odd if a guard disguise worked for a woman when none of the guards were women (this could work the other way also in other circumstances, could lead to differing strategies depending on gender)

Agree with some of the posts above, a disguise shouldn't work with a small group who would all know each other..
and a hood should be sufficient in general public areas where hiding your own identity is all that is required (as opposed to impersonating someone else)

Given the fact that we're free to play any character (sex, skin tone, body build etc ...) I hope the world of SG will be like the realm of Robinn Hobb "The Farseer trilogy", a low fantasy medieval world where there is no distinction between male/female when it comes to "martial" jobs as guard, trainer, hunter etc ...

 

[cosmo bozo]

Given the fact that we're free to play any character (sex, skin tone, body build etc ...) I hope the world of SG will be like the realm of Robinn Hobb "The Farseer trilogy", a low fantasy medieval world where there is no distinction between male/female when it comes to "martial" jobs as guard, trainer, hunter etc ...

I'm is two minds... on the one hand equality is good...
on the other hand it would help to make choices in character creation actually mean something...
maybe it could differ by faction.

 

[fluffydino2000]

That's a very good point. Something I don't think has been discussed is the ramifications of character creation beyond the physique you choose.

It'd be very interesting to see if race and things like that are of any factor in how the game plays. Something I was a big fan of in DA:O was the fact that character creation was such a huge and important decision. Even thinking about it makes me want to buy it for PC just to play again. If I think about character creation for skyrim on the other hand I just think how pointless it is. It changes some dialogue and starting skills and gives you a few "unique" abilities. It should be much more important in my opinion. Skyrim would've been better off if all character creation affected would be dialogue and aesthetic. Otherwise you feel like your choice is hollow when the resulting effects of it are so small on gameplay.

 

[Tony]

That's a very good point. Something I don't think has been discussed is the ramifications of character creation beyond the physique you choose.

It has been discussed before whether or not sex should affect things in the game and people seemed split. Some argued that it would make sense to have differences in dialogue/reactions from NPCs while others said doing so would be sexist. Then people argued that a bit of sexism would be great since Sui Generis is supposed to be a gritty, dark world; not a place that is always nice, fair and pleasant. However, the sexism should apply to both male and female characters. Not only praise one sex while always degrading another.

This brings up a question about whether or not a male would be able to disguise themselves as a woman or vice versa. Will NPCs automatically know your sex or will it be possible to mimic the opposite sex by not speaking and wearing an appropriate disguise? And will hand gestures be possible and recognized by NPCs? If you were trying to avoid speaking and someone asked you a question in the game might it be possible to get away with not speaking by pointing, shrugging or making some other appropriate gesture?

 

[fluffydino2000]

That's an interesting idea. I've never thought of passive dialogue choices like that before. On the matter of disguising gender. This should absolutely be possible. If you wear a full suit of male plate armour. Nobody's gonna think, there's probably a woman in there. If you don't say anything nobody will ever suspect anything. And people shouldn't instantly know by voice either. There should need to be enough evidence to suggest gender before deciding either way. Otherwise an NPC should just make the assumption of whatever is most likely. This would obviously happen very quickly.

 

[Sony Black]

Ok, I was just watching the Pre-alpha Gameplay video again, and I noticed that when equipping the guards armour, she doesn't un-equip her shoulder pads. The guard isn't wearing any shoulder pads, and yet she still pulls off the disguise. This confirms that disguises, in some cases, don't have to be perfect. It also therefore confirms that disguises will be checked for completeness, or that guards can overlook smaller details if they have no reason to look thoroughly.

Nice catch Though i still wonder if disguises are "binary" (so you either are disguised and won't be recognised or you aren't and they will see through it) or if it is a more fluent transition - a % based chance that the disguise works depending on multiple parameters (which sounds far more realistic IMHO and should be doable from a programmer standpoint). I guess it'll be the latter (or at least i hope so )

The chance for you to be recognised could be influenced by the completeness of the disguise, your behaviour, the range between you and the guards (or whoever) you want to trick, if you show your face or not etc. Actually with such a system it would be easy to simulate smaller groups beeing harder to infiltrate (bigger penalty for incompleteness or wrong behaviour)

 

[fluffydino2000]

I'm just excited that disguise will actually be a solution to problems for once. I mean, if you ever needed to get into a building, your first thought wouldn't be I'll shoot my way in, or slip in undetected. They'd be, how can I get in legitimately to later commit my crime. Disguise is usually the easiest way of doing this if a location is guarded so that's what you'd do.

 

[Zervostyrd]

And what about disguising in a hooded robe, rather than a uniform?
You could put on a hooded robe, and guards wouldn't be suspicious.

But what if you move past a guard and he recognize the face or if you move past a civilian that happens to get a glimpse of your face? I mean in real life a hood isn't really a good disguise unless part of your face is also covered. (which I think very much would at least catch peoples attention).

Disgiused Female debate:
First off, Make the game gender neutral, at least in the "who can do what job" department. It's more convinient and honestly not anything that I think would end up as a big deal (many games do this anyway). Secondly gender might be a thing if there's a gang of all females wearing nothing but "ordinary" clothes and you're trying to infiltrate them as a male... You better be good... same goes for vice versa. But a band of all female "knights" all wearing plate, you should be able to sneak past (hey there's tall women too) and again same goes for vice versa...

IMO the choice of gender shouldn't be that a big deal, at worst a few "uniqe" dialog options and not being able to infiltrate some places because of it or something like that...

 

[fluffydino2000]

Something that always gets me in games is the one size fits all thing. Why is it that a tall guy's armour fits your 5'4'' character. This is partially relevant here because realistically, you couldn't just loot a guards outfit and wear it without people being suspicious of the poor fit. Now I know this would raise a whole host of issues, throughout the game, but can anyone think of a way of balancing this?

 

[cosmo bozo]

Disgiused Female debate:
First off, Make the game gender neutral, at least in the "who can do what job" department. It's more convinient and honestly not anything that I think would end up as a big deal (many games do this anyway). Secondly gender might be a thing if there's a gang of all females wearing nothing but "ordinary" clothes and you're trying to infiltrate them as a male... You better be good... same goes for vice versa. But a band of all female "knights" all wearing plate, you should be able to sneak past (hey there's tall women too) and again same goes for vice versa...

IMO the choice of gender shouldn't be that a big deal, at worst a few "uniqe" dialog options and not being able to infiltrate some places because of it or something like that...

I'm don't mind either way, but if I had a female character and I disguised myself to infiltrate a group that was all men, I'd feel like a bit like Bob in Blackadder.

Of course there might be female guards, I just didn't see any in the video.

I do like it though when the game actually notices what you click on the character generation screen. Neither gender should be handicapped, but different options could be good, and disguises is an area where that could work

 

[Sony Black]

Something that always gets me in games is the one size fits all thing. Why is it that a tall guy's armour fits your 5'4'' character. This is partially relevant here because realistically, you couldn't just loot a guards outfit and wear it without people being suspicious of the poor fit. Now I know this would raise a whole host of issues, throughout the game, but can anyone think of a way of balancing this?

Well iguess it would still be OK with guards uniforms - my guess would be that they were made to fit on an average person, since they (probably) wouldn't order a complete new armor for every new guard. Though i guess that some armors are more "forgiving" than others in terms of not fitting perfectly. Though as i said i'm just guessing, the best person to ask about this should be @Elric von Rabenfels.
(sorry to bother you about this topic as well Elric, but you do seem to be the best reference for armor and weapons on this forum - and believe me your posts are greatly appreciated )

The one which should cause the biggest problems if it doesn't fit perfectly should be full plate armor (IIRC Elric said somewhere that a not fitting plate armor would be more of a hinderance than it would help you in a fight (though please correct me if i remember something wrong ))

Maybe you could loot cloth, leather and mail, but to get your hands on plate you would have to order one made for you by a blacksmith...

 

[fluffydino2000]

Maybe an easy way to get around this would be armour re-adjustments at blacksmiths?

 

[Tessaya]

I don't think it would be easy to make it obvious you need to reajust your armor/clothes (the size of the characters on screen is rather small) but the idea is actually quite good. Maybe you could keep scraps of different qualities/material to accomodate your every need, then have to dye them. It could even be used to justify an "armor/cloth wounds" feature (don't know if the engine is able to do that, but I think it'd be neat!).