Item Durability and Repair

[fluffydino2000]

And am I the only one here who worries that freezing or electrifying the weapon we hold 'may' give damage to us as well, since this is Sui Generis ?

This should definitely be the case. But, you could get handle shaft that didn't conduct heat/electricity too well, protecting you. Or, at high levels of Concentration, you may be able to control the power so well that it doesn't even pass down the shaft/handle.

 

[Empire²]

I am okay with it slowly damaging your weapon, not that sure about your character though. It's some sort of risk-reward situation, but I think the risk outweighs the reward by far if it were to work like that.

 

[BrecMadak]

This should definitely be the case. But, you could get handle shaft that didn't conduct heat/electricity too well, protecting you. Or, at high levels of Concentration, you may be able to control the power so well that it doesn't even pass down the shaft/handle.

Sure its mechanic should rely on accordingly which ever side's power is stronger. The buff vs resistance a like.

 

[Komuflage]

I am okay with it slowly damaging your weapon, not that sure about your character though. It's some sort of risk-reward situation, but I think the risk outweighs the reward by far if it were to work like that.

You try to fight Porky, but as a puny human you don't really stand a chance. He smashes you with all his might, crushing you.
You decide to try the fight again. Earlier you picked up a scroll of flame. And you got quite a high concentration skill.
You know that if you enhance your sword with flames, you might be able to deal damage to him. But there is also the risk that, if you don't keep concentrated, you might loose control of the flame, and it will pour down the Hilt, severly burning you in the process. Or the blade gets to hot and bend when hitting Porky's hard plate armour.

Now, this is a risk, but it's your option whatever you want to take it or not.
It's quite hard to decide now, whatever the risk out weights the rewards, since its all comes down to how it's balanced.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Even if the risk seriously outweighs any reward, it's still nice to have in the game. Obviously, this kind of thaumaturgy isn't a requirement, nor will it necessarily function how we've described it. But just think how much it would add to the overall depth of the equipment system.

Also, there could be loads of other equipment enhancing thaumaturgical powers which wouldn't negatively affect the user. You could, for example, displace the air around the blade making it swing faster.

 

[Komuflage]

Even if the risk seriously outweighs any reward, it's still nice to have in the game. Obviously, this kind of thaumaturgy isn't a requirement, nor will it necessarily function how we've described it. But just think how much it would add to the overall depth of the equipment system.

Also, there could be loads of other equipment enhancing thaumaturgical powers which wouldn't negatively affect the user. You could, for example, displace the air around the blade making it swing faster.

But if there is no cons in using a power like that, what hinders you from using it each time you got the "power/mana" to do so?

 

[Parco]

Or have a anti-gravity enchantment, making the weapon weightless, pros: swing weapons as fast as you can move your arm. Cons: the only force on inpact comes from your arms weight and speed, making blunt and most heavy weapons almost useless.

 

[Parco]

But if there is no cons in using a power like that, what hinders you from using it each time you got the "power/mana" to do so?

Using wind around the blade is also like giving it a small protective shield, it might swing faster but when you hit the enemy the extra conpact air surrendering the sword hits the enemy before the sword does and slows down the swing right before it hits, this can be the cons from using air enchantment, faster swings but less force on inpact.
To controll air like this would require high level of consentration, so only the best will be able to use it perfectly

 

[fluffydino2000]

Well, nothing. But, you'd have to maintain the concentration to keep the effect. And, you'd probably have to have Displacement as an innate form. But, what's the effect of a vacuum on steel, it might make it really easy to heat up? because there is no air to take heat away. Actually, wouldn't it be really cold (a la space). So it would probably be easy to shatter/snap.

Also @Parco Folgore , I didn't mean put force behind the blade, but remove air resistance by creating a vacuum. That way, there'd be no air to lessen the impact.

 

[Parco]

Ah srry, my missunderstanding, was thinking you ment you used the air to push the blade.
But there is one con to vacuum, it will be cold, not hot, so if used for too long time the blade will freeze and break easier

 

[Empire²]

You try to fight Porky, but as a puny human you don't really stand a chance. He smashes you with all his might, crushing you.
You decide to try the fight again. Earlier you picked up a scroll of flame. And you got quite a high concentration skill.
You know that if you enhance your sword with flames, you might be able to deal damage to him. But there is also the risk that, if you don't keep concentrated, you might loose control of the flame, and it will pour down the Hilt, severly burning you in the process. Or the blade gets to hot and bend when hitting Porky's hard plate armour.

Now, this is a risk, but it's your option whatever you want to take it or not.
It's quite hard to decide now, whatever the risk out weights the rewards, since its all comes down to how it's balanced.

I never wanted to fight Porky, he's my friend...

Anyways, how do you expect this "concentration" to work? I mean, having quick time events or limited movement speed very much isn't going to make the gameplay more exciting.

Truly, I would absolutely adore watching flames dance around the blade of a sword and just admiring the glow it emits on the surrounding environment, but I want to have to work with what I have in RPGs. I hate how in Skyrim, you can literally carry as many weapons as you would ever need. In Sui Generis, that just wouldn't work. I think running around pulling forth a hay cart's worth of swords and shields, potions and poisons, a wide variety of fashionable helmets as well as, for some strange reason, some porcelain bowls you stole from the poor old man who runs the lumbermill. will make people pick up too much stuff.

You'd be able to carry two swords at most, and perhaps a second shield on your back. You would be a lot slower, but at least you'd have backup weapons in case anything goes wrong.

If Concentration were to be a character skill, then what would make that skill level up? Using a fire scroll and hoping the flames don't start raining on your head, giving you flashbacks of the volcanic eruption on Pompeii? Skill should mean everything in a game, rather than luck. If there are relatively simple ways of dealing with the possible danger of harming yourself in the use of scrolls like this one, then I'm all for it.

Just don't make me have to reload saves every 10 seconds because my lightning scroll backfired and my character now looks like Emperor Palpatine.

Possible scrolls:
Lightning: (Can be conducted through the enemy's weapon and armour, if both are made of iron.)
Fire: (Could set the handle of a spear or polearm on fire, as well as burn clothes, robes and cowls.)
Ice: (You hit an enemy on his sword arm and his joints become locked for a few seconds.)
Wind: (Every hit you parry causes the enemy's sword to launch the opposite way. Every body hit sends a wave of force through the enemy, pushing him back and staggering him)
Shadow/Light: (Blinds the enemy for a few seconds on hit)

Imagine being a notorious highwayman in a forest, and being attacked by a group of masked assailants, hired in revenge by a noble you robbed. You use your scroll of fire on your one handed sword, and as you evade his attack and slash horizontally at one of the men, he rolls out of the way. You hit his cape, and it catches fire. The assailant throws away his weapon and frantically attempts to put out the flames that are licking at him while you fight against the other attackers.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Concentration already is a skill. It helps with "continuous powers" in the game. Continuous powers are those that have to be maintained and are on constantly (i.e. a weapon buff or reanimation). The mechanic is that a portion of your overall focus (essentially mana) is taken up by a continuous power. That way, instead of casting it over and over again, you cast it once and have to focus on it constantly (or in terms of other games, your mana pool becomes smaller). Concentration at high levels will reduce the amount of focus required for continuous powers and allow for more of them to be active at once.

For the spell not to execute properly, it would be because your character's thaumaturgic power is too low for the power (spell). But, if you used up too much focus, or got hit in the head, you could lose control of your continuous powers.

Edit:
http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Thaumaturgy
http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/power-suggestions.214/#post-3266

 

[fluffydino2000]

Whoops, I thought it didn't post.

Edit: May as well make this useful. You wouldn't be able to save if your spell backfired as the game saves constantly. This is intended to stop people from saving to find out what a decision would do then exploiting the fact that they could load again if it went wrong.

http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Death

 

[Empire²]

That's okay, almost happened to me on my last post in here. Forums seem to be a little bit slow at the moment I guess

 

[BrecMadak]

Before leaving or giving a break to topic title, I just can not let this pass; breaking chances; there should always be a break chance even in the hands of an adept, other than simply how numerically low its durability left off from total, accordingly;

1. How many times it got repaired before
2. How fragile that item is & its mass weight
3. How many times that item's molecules were changed (all buffs make it change to something else or add x on top of default value, so all of them count)

These are some ideas that came to my mind that would be cool to see it happen as an altering way of modifying to durability mechanic. I'm sure more could even be added but that's all for me at least.

 

[Komuflage]

I hate how in Skyrim, you can literally carry as many weapons as you would ever need. In Sui Generis, that just wouldn't work. I think running around pulling forth a hay cart's worth of swords and shields, potions and poisons, a wide variety of fashionable helmets as well as, for some strange reason, some porcelain bowls you stole from the poor old man who runs the lumbermill. will make people pick up too much stuff.

It's already been confirmed that you won't be able to pick up everything you find.
The idea is also that everything you carry with you, will be visible on our character, so if you have a backup sword, you'll see the sword on your character. (However if this is still the case or not, I dunno, but that's pretty much what bm stated they wanted it to work)

 

[Empire²]

It's already been confirmed that you won't be able to pick up everything you find.
The idea is also that everything you carry with you, will be visible on our character, so if you have a backup sword, you'll see the sword on your character. (However if this is still the case or not, I dunno, but that's pretty much what bm stated they wanted it to work)

For me, that would be perfect. Another issue I had with Skyrim, which is a purely aesthetical one, is that if you switch from your bow to let's say a sword and vice versa, the other weapon will no longer be sheathed or on your back.

I think what not a lot of games have accomplished yet is giving the player a sense of impact on the world, and giving us the feeling of a reflection of that in our character.

Let's say you are Komu Khan, the great and mighty warrior nomad that towers over all of his foes. If the world is reactive enough to reflect that image of you through NPC dialogue and enemy behaviour, you would feel like an absolute badass walking around with your fearsome greataxe when people swarm around you as you enter town, and say things differently than they would to a common mercenary or guardsman.

But let's say you are Komu The Shadow, master thief and assassin, with a sharp tongue and an even sharper blade. You weave through a busy market like a shadow, without anyone knowing your identity. You'll visit the inn, where the innkeeper tells you about the latest rumour, the theft of some valuable jewels from a palace far to the east. You stay there for a while and give out a few rounds to the merry townsfolk, and as you take your leave, you pay for the food and drink with a certain shiny gem.


Impact and the reflection of your choices, attitude and skill level in the world around you are literally some of the hardest, but also most rewarding and satisfactory features of a game. Who doesn't want their name to be the one that mothers tell their children will come get them in the night if they don't behave? Or who wouldn't like to eavesdrop overexaggerated versions of their adventures, told or even 'experienced' by drunk townsfolk, from a lonely table in the corner of a cozy inn?

 

[Madoc]

There are no plans at all to introduce something along the lines of steadily decreasing durability and regular repairs as is featured in many RPGs. To us this sort of feature makes no sense and contributes nothing to anything but the most schematic games (gold sinks, regular trips to town...). If a set of specific, more realistic and interesting related mechanics could be identified we would consider them. We've been watching this thread but it looks like it needs a little direction.

As it is repairing items makes no sense to us. Most of the time when an item is broken (or torn, cut, pierced) it needs to be thrown away and replaced, at least in part. Restoring items to mint condition is not usually possible. A specific mechanic such as a sword's edge needing to be kept sharp with with a whetstone is something we would consider but there would need to be a significant number of mechanics in a similar vein for it to not be out of place. Poor quality swords or wooden shafts snapping seems like an amusing feature, but does it raise questions about what should happen to everything else such as various armours or clothing? Also to consider is that the most powerful items in the game are generally priceless ancient artefacts and no one has the skill or knowledge to repair them.

I see a couple of other things in this thread that might need a little direction.

This game does not feature magic as an excuse to do anything that shouldn't be possible. Thaumaturgy has specific and consistent laws by which it operates, it most certainly does not justify spell scrolls or enchanting items. That sort of thing is simply not possible with thaumaturgy, it would make no sense by any stretch of the imagination. Augmenting attacks with thaumaturgy is possible. The displacing air to reduce fluid friction idea is neat.

Quick contact (i.e. a blow from a weapon) with either flames or cold doesn't seem like an effective way of delivering damage, you would need to literally set someone's cloak on on fire or place some incendiary material on them. Cold just does nothing without prolongued exposure unless you're talking about seriously extreme temperatures. Electricity on the other hand makes a good deal of sense.

We have said that every item you wear is visible on your person, we do however also have an inventory storage space that items simply "dissapear" to and this is where your spare weapons would be. Our inventory system is complex enough as it, also having everyhing you carry appear attached to your character somehow doesn't really seem possible. We never intended to have such a feature.

Hope I didn't burst too many bubbles and that you can use this information constructively. Some of it is quite key to our design philosophy and the feel of the game world. We look forward to seeing more of your suggestions actually.

 

[Komuflage]

We have said that every item you wear is visible on your person, we do however also have an inventory storage space that items simply "dissapear" to and this is where your spare weapons would be. Our inventory system is complex enough as it, also having everyhing you carry appear attached to your character somehow doesn't really seem possible. We never intended to have such a feature.

Ah ok, my bad, long time I read about it, so I guess I can have mixed it up somehow

Hope I didn't burst too many bubbles and that you can use this information constructively. Some of it is quite key to our design philosophy and the feel of the game world. We look forward to seeing more of your suggestions actually.

It's just good that you direct it. It's difficult for us to know exactly what's plausible as well as what fits with the game. And even if discussing is always fun, it fells much more productive to actually discuss thing that 'can' help.

 

[Komuflage]

There are no plans at all to introduce something along the lines of steadily decreasing durability and regular repairs as is featured in many RPGs. To us this sort of feature makes no sense and contributes nothing to anything but the most schematic games (gold sinks, regular trips to town...). If a set of specific, more realistic and interesting related mechanics could be identified we would consider them.

As it is repairing items makes no sense to us. Most of the time when an item is broken (or torn, cut, pierced) it needs to be thrown away and replaced, at least in part. Restoring items to mint condition is not usually possible. A specific mechanic such as a sword's edge needing to be kept sharp with with a whetstone is something we would consider but there would need to be a significant number of mechanics in a similar vein for it to not be out of place.

May I just ask why repairing makes no sense?
Even today you still sharpen up a worn Axe or knife.
Now I guess a standard sword is easier (and cheaper) to replace than repairing it. But if you've a high quality sword, resharpening it once it becomes to dull (Need a better word. But "Not sharp anymore) seems more valid than buying/finding a new one.

About this part:
"If a set of specific, more realistic and interesting related mechanics could be identified we would consider them."
The idea of a weapon realistically (whatever dynamically, or by a specific set of behind the scene rules) becomes worn, as suggested by Fluffy "An idea I just had is that since most weapon stats are generated based off of the geometry of the model, maybe the model can actually be made less effective to simulate disrepair. My idea is that every time a force acts upon the weapon, it deforms slightly. After a while, blades would end up blunt and bent." seems to me like a very interesting system. Then you also have a "set of specific, more realistic and interesting related mechanics"

Now whatever this is possible or not. I don't know.

This game does not feature magic as an excuse to do anything that shouldn't be possible. Thaumaturgy has specific and consistent laws by which it operates, it most certainly does not justify spell scrolls or enchanting items. That sort of thing is simply not possible with thaumaturgy, it would make no sense by any stretch of the imagination. Augmenting attacks with thaumaturgy is possible. The displacing air to reduce fluid friction idea is neat.

What about setting arrows (or simmilar) on fire?
It's something that have been done and it does serve a purpose.
Not just will the enemy get a pointy arrow trough their chest, but a burning one should be able to set cloth on fire. Which would not only do a great load of burn damage, it would also most likely make the victim panic.