Impactful weapon suggestion

Xerxes

Insider
I wouldn't say heavy weps was useless, rather you had to know how to use them, and if you knew that you would deal insane dmg in pvp.

The poise system in darksouls didn't work very well.
Just look at the video you posted (Post #9) he can just continue waving while taking multiple hits from small - mid sized weapon, you where pretty much a walking tower if you had enough poise.
That's not strictly true. Being an effective pvp player, knowing how to counter everything is important.
Dark souls' poise system's biggest flaw is that people can just poise through attacks then backstab the opponent.
In that video, rosie is basically a skilled player killing some beginners. If she is using dark wood grain ring, and a katana, she can kill them much faster. Heavy armor means slower rolling speed, rosie has fat roll so she won't roll at all. Wielding heavy weapons in heavy armors take much more skill than any other play style. Play without lock on, without roll backstab, having to effectively parry are much more challenging than dark wood grain ring, hornet ring, chaos rapier +5 back stabbing. You can try it yourself, build a poise monster and try to R1 your way to victory. It's not easy.

In demon's souls, no one is wearing heavy armor because everything stun locks. Sure dragon bone smasher is a cheating weapon, but there are more cheesy tactics such as blue blood sword stun locking. Demon's souls pvp is pretty weak comparing to dark souls. Dragon bone smasher is probably the only heavy weapon that is any good, that is also because of the bugged cursed weapon enchant spell. Demon's souls pvp is much less refined and fun when compared to dark souls.

Also, you still hasn't given your evidences of why making the game less random is a bad idea. My poise suggestions can be Incorporated into the game without losing any thing. Players who is wearing full plate armor will have more inertia and will less likely to be knocked around. Weapon parrying is less effective than shield blocking and small shields are easier to be knocked off than large shields. It's not that alien of a concept.
 

Komuflage

Insider
Also, you still hasn't given your evidences of why making the game less random is a bad idea. My poise suggestions can be Incorporated into the game without losing any thing. Players who is wearing full plate armor will have more inertia and will less likely to be knocked around. Weapon parrying is less effective than shield blocking and small shields are easier to be knocked off than large shields. It's not that alien of a concept.
I'm a little confused, I thought we talked about weapons having flashy effects, not whatever randomness is bad/good (I honestly don't remember when we talked about this)
In fact I just read through all your comments in this thread and I didn't find where you suggested Poise for SG.
And ofc parrying is less effective than shield blocking (under "normal" circumstances) But I don't remember saying otherwise?

Anyway, I don't see a need for poise in SG, since it's combat is based on physics and not numbers in the same way as most games.

About DS (Both) pvp, in my opinion I prefer Demon's souls pvp, it felt 'more' balanced, and you could also have organised pvp tournaments, something that just doesn't work as easily as in Dark, and honestly, from the pvp I've done in dark, I don't find Heavy armour + Heavy weapon that hard. As I mentioned, you're pretty much a walking tower, that also deals insane amount of damage.

But just as you mentioned Bone crusher and Blue blood being op in Demon.
Have you tried Crystal Shotel + Darkmoon blade? Over 2k damage and a percentage goes through shield, so 2-3 hits if they've shield up and they'll be dead.
 

Xerxes

Insider
1. Sui Generis is not a Hack&Slash. Quoting the developers:
2. Sui Generis is not about grinding. Quoting the developers:
Not being diablo does not necessarily renders my arguments invalid. Please let me explain to you:

There is one thing I found that is not very believable about SG; it is the incentive to keep players playing. People play games for numerous reasons.
Someone like myself would just blow through the game ASAP and starts NG+ with every advantage I can get. I want to play the game with every cards in my hands.
Others are fans of theory crafting would like to try out new builds and may be starting some competitions.
There are people who love to role play and will take the game very slowly one piece at a time.
Then there are mindless grinders who love to watch numbers growing.
Also, casual gamers do play games with their friends and such.

SG's dynamic world event generator is cool, but the events will be told to the player via quests. I don't think computers are able to generate coherent stories. Most modern rpgs' are backed by an entire army of professional writers (or just monkeys that can write), so that they can have hundreds of thousands pieces of dialog, item descriptions and surrounding lores. BM only has a few dudes, even Mr. M himself take up the pen, there still won't be enough text to last me a few weekends. So, the dynamic world event generator will likely be telling most of the story via generated quests.
Quests will be mainly about killing and looting, so player will inevitably spend most of their active playing time fighting monsters. (may be there will be more variants but combat is the main element here, or maybe BM can make running around fun).

Thus, a good combat system is vital for SG's role-playing experience.

By having something that can put itself over the top and blow people's mind can really help the game to achieve its place in gaming. What i'm saying is that even though all AAA games are stupidly packing more and more useless stuffs in their games, SG can do a much better job by having a tight focus.

No need to add in token food, water, disease, climate system. No need to add in love interest sub-plot and cliches borrowed from every fantasy movie ever made. All SG needs is a super tight and glorious combat system that looks awesome and plays like hot knife through a bit of butter.

It may take some resources, but it will pay off in the long run.

Of cause it can be argued that SG is likely to stand heads and shoulders above most modern games easily. It's certainly possible. However, BM don't have any way to advertise itself. If BM want to make more games of their liking, instead of going bankruptcy after a while or starting to make quick cash by taking orders from other bigger companies, it needs to have things that make it stands out. SG's story will not be great, lets be honest. No matter how dynamically generated the story is, it will not best professional writers that have undergone years of training. There is no way to make stories that actually get to the player without human's intelligence.

SG's strong point is its combat. It's combat is organic and lasting, but it needs more refinement. It needs to introduce new things and mechanics to players non-stop. (an good example would be x-com, enemy unknown, best turn based strategy game ever, in my book). It needs to give players a visceral feel of stimulation either visually or via surprises.

If it would take too much resources, BM can at least lay down the fundamentals, so that talented modders can implement new features into the game at a later date.
 

Xerxes

Insider
But just as you mentioned Bone crusher and Blue blood being op in Demon.
Have you tried Crystal Shotel + Darkmoon blade? Over 2k damage and a percentage goes through shield, so 2-3 hits if they've shield up and they'll be dead.
From what I know, there is no way to beat a similarly skilled player with cursed bone crusher or blue blood in demon's souls. Bone crusher's heavy attack can sweep across the entire screen and any 2 hits from it will kill you. It also dead angles like crazy so turtling is not an option. Blue blood attacks so fast that even toggle escape won't work most of the time.

If you just want to kill the opponent, then there are more unfair ways to do so. Dark beads + TCC + dragon crest ring + crown of dusk can ruin anyone even with less skill. But Dark souls has vow of silence which is a miracle that stops any spell casting. A skilled player can parry r2 shotel spamming with ease, and it will not kill you behind your shield with a few hits because the less damage you do, the more percentage of the damage will be absorbed by your armor. Dark magics, and wraith of gods can be rolled through easily. On the other hand, in demon souls, there is nothing to be used against bone crusher and blue blood.
In dark souls pvp, if weapon enchanting, dark magic spamming, constantly backstabbing, hornet ring are not used, then pvp is much more fun than demon souls' lets see who get stun locked first. A few elites in dark souls are running 0 poise builds, but that's just among the best of the best. Poise is pretty essential for everyone else. Which I would not call the perfect solution.

The ideal poise system would be not essential, but can make some builds viable. A two-hander build does not have an off-hand for parrying and blocking, and every swing you will leave yourself open. So there has to be something to compensate this. Poise should be something more along the line of a trade-off, than straight up gain. I don't have the best idea of what it can be; if BM would come up with something clever, that would be lovely.
 

Komuflage

Insider
I might be mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, but have BM even mentioned a Dynamic Event Generator?

At least from my understanding the main story will be just like any other game. (Or well it'll be dynamic, but I don't think it'll be all randomly generated?)
And why would quest be mainly about killing and looting? (Although I guess a lot of them will, just like any other rpg)

"BM don't have any way to advertise itself." Except from showing of what seems to be one of the most awesome rpgs in a long time.

"SG's story will not be great, lets be honest." What makes you think that?

"There is no way to make stories that actually get to the player without human's intelligence."
Are you saying Tony Dye ain't intelligent and cant write a great story? :p
From what I've read it seems quite good :)


Let's try not to go to of topic with the souls game (just a little more) Imo bone crusher is easier to parry than Shatel and you can easily dodge it's slow attacks. And a shatel will still deal 1kdmg each hit if you block it, so again, 2-3 and you'll die.


"if weapon enchanting, dark magic spamming, constantly backstabbing, hornet ring are not used"
Yes if 'Only' those things ain't used :p

Again I stick to my statement, Demon's souls pvp is more balanced than Dark souls (That's not to say Demon's is perfect, but it's better balanced)
And again, I personally prefer demon's pvp, but "to each their own"

And honestly "A few elites in dark souls are running 0 poise builds, but that's just among the best of the best."
Just like in Demon's I've theory crafted a lot and tried many different builds. Light armour and fast weapons just being one. And well, maybe Dark souls pvp have really evolved since I last played, but I didn't find 0 poise to be that difficult, just required you to parry and dodge more, but on the other hand, you had more stamina.
 

Parco

Moderator
army of professional writers
maybe thats the problem, their that many, up to 30 people maybe, 30 people with their own version of the story sitting there to write just one story, that can get messy :p

BM don't have any way to advertise itself
You forget youtube letsplayers, article writers and us here on the forum, a game like this should have no problem getting attention from totalbiscuit for example. i think advertising the game wouldnt be a problem as it would go basically automatic.
SG's story will not be great, lets be honest. No matter how dynamically generated the story is, it will not best professional writers that have undergone years of training. There is no way to make stories that actually get to the player without human's intelligence.
how do you know it wont be great? and does it have to best a story that needed 30 people to complete? as i understand it(correct me if im wrong) the story is being written as we play the game, not written before we play it(possibly some main goals here and there). Lets say you kill a fisher, now as that fisher is dead who is gonna sell the fish to the fish seller at the market place? and with the lack of fish the prizes will go up and people in the town starts to starve because many cant afford the few fishes that actually gets to the market, etc,...
this way they dont need to write a story, they just need to put in alot of chain reactions into the game, what would be fun if the game wrote the story itself in the background as you played the game, then it would be like this:
"he killed the old fisherman Frank in cold blood and took his money, with noone to deliver fish to the market the prizes started rising and alot of people started starving as they could not afford the few fishes that was left."
The story might not be perfect or well written, it might be messed up and buggy but i dont believe that would be a problem as its a story about the player,you, how you lived your life and the choices you make. and i believe most of us would love it, even if its a little buggy.

Their physics engine blew my mind, they are so few people on this task and yet they have made a better physic engine than i can see many other huge game companies have, who have an army of professionals working on the same thing, as i mentioned before maybe the large number is the problem, so i dont see why they are doomed to fail at the story part just because their numbers doesnt match up to other game companies when they already proved they stand basically on the same ground. as i see it the only benefit from being many is that the production goes faster.
 

Komuflage

Insider
Is that the only type of story the game will have?
Like the fisherman example, or killing a king etc.

I thought there would be a main plot line, that played through itself in the background. Why would there be a main antagonist otherwise? :confused:
 

Parco

Moderator
i dont know, just my brain working in weird ways and makes connections out of random stuff :/
why not both? main plot playing itself in the background and you can still kill the fisherman? :p
your probably right and im wrong, my thoughts was that we could choose our part in a story, if we were to be the savior or the destroyer, or simply a random guy showing up here and there.
 
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Scarecrow

Insider
There is a main plot, however its kinda up to you to get involved or not (You may still unintentionally get involved aswell, thanks to the whole dynamic-chain-reaction story and quest system). Parco was merely using an example for this system you see.

And Xerxes, have you ever read a good novel that was written by a gazillion authors? I have not. Novels are more often than not written by just one man/woman. Who are you to say the stroy wont be great? There is a main plot, and it doesnt need more than one skilled writer to get it done. Im not saying all quests or side-stories if you will, are going to be like an epic novel. But you dont need many writers.

As for combat, Sui Generis has a totally new and unique take on it. Never before have i seen its like, and it is what really got me interested in the game to begin with. The combat doesnt need to be flashy-overthetop, it needs to be good and new. How can you say that the combat is lacking anything? You havent even tried it, none of us have. And more over, this is still waaaaaay pre-alpha.

Sorry if i come of as a bit agressive, it is not my intentions.
PS: I too favor Demon's Souls pvp over Dark Souls pvp
 

Komuflage

Insider
i dont know, just brain brain working in weird ways and makes connections out of random stuff :/
why not both? main plot playing itself in the background and you can still kill the fisherman? :p
your probably right and im wrong, my thoughts was that we could choose our part in a story, if we were to be the savior or the destroyer, or simply a random guy showing up here and there.
I was kinda suggesting that there would be both, hence the "Is that the only type of story the game will have?"

I think of it like GW2s Open world events, and Personal story, although a bit more open in choices and possible outcomes.

Scarecrow summed it up quite well.


Nice to see you comment Cooper, where missing you sloth picture :p
 

Xerxes

Insider
so i dont see why they are doomed to fail at the story part just because their numbers doesnt match up to other game companies when they already proved they stand basically on the same ground. as i see it the only benefit from being many is that the production goes faster.
Making story driven rpgs are more like staking blocks than creating the most amazing blocks. Having many people enable video game studios to make huge game with a rich lore behind it. SG can not compete with all other rpg making studios on the story front because SG's story is more like a chain of seemingly random events than a story line with actual logic and depth behind. Sure there will be a set condition and some set end boss, that doesn't make SG's story great.

Today's competition is just madness. Dozens of indie games are coming to steam almost every day, and only a handful of them are getting the support they deserves. For example, after I bought towns (a base management game with minecraft inspired elements), timber and stone enters open beta (a base management game with minecraft inspired elements, but with beautiful 3d graphics), so I bought timber and stones. Then stone heathe was anounced (a base management game with minecraft inspired elements with beautiful 3d graphics and dungeons, rpg elements, giant boss raids, huge battlefields, advanced ai, detailed animations and many more). Of cause, I bought that too.
You see, it's hard to stand out in the crowd if your game's greatness is hard to get across. People are willing to do anything to under cut the market and making more and more crazy promises with more and more copy cat features.

SG's physics engine is what makes it special. Dynamic story is just a way to reduce their work load, which is similar to randomly generate dungeons and loots. These are hardly selling features because hand picked and crafted set pieces are always going to best them. Thus, It would be wonderful if BM focus on its strong points a bit more.
These being said, physics engine based combat's strong point is not just saving them a lot of money on animate everything. It makes adding a variety of things into the game very simple and cheap. After they add in two handers, people can just use that code to make hundreds of weapons (no need to make high poly models or hd textures) within a short time without having to do the tedious animating parts. The possibility is endless.
 

Xerxes

Insider
*Ogre,
And his name is Porky. :)
:p isn't that an alternative spelling? His name is porky?o_O

BTW, I hope they can use less ragdoll physics in the combat. There is no feeling of resistance.
In skyrim, if you are ragdollized, you can be pushed around like a teddy bear.
In dark souls, if you are knocked back, your character will do a slide on his feet while kneeling, giving the sense of you are struggling to take that blow. Sure, it's not all animated by physics, but it looks and feels great.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
The only thing we've seen so far unless I'm mistaken is sword fighting and the force push which is named something else.

There's a possibility that you could apply stuff to weapons, eg poisons but I don't see them glowing. We hent seen any animated killmoves so far, that's also a possibility but again I don't see anything massive, simply because a killmove can be repeated many many many times over in 1 hour, killmoves are fine if everyone is different but we know that's not the case.
When Madoc was talking about dynamic, realistic lighting in the pitch video, he mentioned glowing weapons. So I guess they will be implemented.
 

Xerxes

Insider
This is a huge assumption, and honestly I don't know where you got this from.
Well, how can it not be?

The world is said to be working on its own in the background, so all events will be dynamically generated(with set pieces in all likely hood). It's less than total random, but still it's random. If the game will tell you where to go and what to do next, it's not a dynamic story or is it?

By seemingly, I meant you are not told of a lot of expositions. (they can't generate these, can they?) Even though there is logic behind the events. To players who don't open up the dev console and find out what leaded him to this situation, it's like random.
 

Scarecrow

Insider
Xerxes, even though the combat is physics based, you do realise that they're still animated?

Kieran on combat: "We are still using the ANIMATIONS Madoc created, he's not an animator, and he's not a swordsman, so they still kinda suck"... (Maybe not EXACTLY how he said it, but very close"

Madoc also has stated that one of their main priorities is to hire a profesional animator to get better quality animations. Also, they have supposedly improved upon the old animations, and we'll see it in the next update
 

Parco

Moderator
BTW, I hope they can use less ragdoll physics in the combat. There is no feeling of resistance.
i think it looks good as it is, if u were to be hit with full force in your head with a mace you would go pretty much ragdoll yourself with little resistance as you fall to the ground :p
as i watch the combat in the dev vid 1 i see nowhere that it needs more resistant, it looks like its already resistant enough, that is my meaning of it at least.
 

Parco

Moderator
Scarecrow summed it up quite well.
i know, saw it after i posted :p

Well, how can it not be?

The world is said to be working on its own in the background, so all events will be dynamically generated(with set pieces in all likely hood). It's less than total random, but still it's random. If the game will tell you where to go and what to do next, it's not a dynamic story or is it?

By seemingly, I meant you are not told of a lot of expositions. (they can't generate these, can they?) Even though there is logic behind the events. To players who don't open up the dev console and find out what leaded him to this situation, it's like random.

it will be like irl, wont it? if you were to encounter a woman who have been robbed, you choose to help her or not. if you were there a little earlier you would have encountered the bandits as well and you might win, loose or flee. or you would be late and you encounter noone, but when talking to a farmer he might tell you: "did you hear, that poor woman got robbed up in that hill over there" and you might think "dang, i should have been here sooner" or "phew, im no match for them anyway, glad i arrived so late". this is how i picture it to be and you might not like it, but i do. And as i understand it, if you want directions in this game you will have to ask around, there wont be and arrow in middle of the screen pointing where to go as it is on skyrim, so the game wont tell you where to go or what to do. if you want to know of any expositions you would need to talk to an npc or probably read a message board, it wont just randomly pop up in your quest log
 

Komuflage

Insider
Well, how can it not be?

The world is said to be working on its own in the background, so all events will be dynamically generated(with set pieces in all likely hood). It's less than total random, but still it's random. If the game will tell you where to go and what to do next, it's not a dynamic story or is it?

By seemingly, I meant you are not told of a lot of expositions. (they can't generate these, can they?) Even though there is logic behind the events. To players who don't open up the dev console and find out what leaded him to this situation, it's like random.
Being told where to go and what to do is not what I'm talking about, again I'm confused, dunno if you just misunderstand what I'm writing, or my English is not good enough to explain.

Saying that there wont be any logic or depth behind the story, and that the story will be (almost) all random, is quite a big assumption.
 
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