What's inappropriate?

[Oona]

In Skyrim, I had some business at the Jarl's chambers, and before I left I decided to jump on the table and walk all over the food. It was a mess really. But, even though the room was full of people, nobody reacted to that.

We didn't see much interaction with NPCs yet, other than combat, but I'm curious to know if there are things that are "inappropriate" that they would react to. In the latest video the character trips over a chair, would anyone react if this happened in a full pub? Maybe someone would laugh? Another would try to help?

 

[BigT2themax]

Well, we won't really be able to theorise how the NPCs will react to things until we get more of an idea of how good the AI is going to be. But let's try anyway!

Looking at one of the recent videos, we can see that the player is able to equip a guardsman's armour and weapons, and then they'll be treated like a guard. So, we can tell that the AI is able to recognise certain pieces of equipment and whatnot and associate whoever's wearing it with certain factions or groups. Maybe they'd be capable of showing a bit of confusion if you're wearing conflicting equipment, i.e. you're wearing a vest and gloves fit for a king, but for some reason your trousers are shoddy and falling apart and not even the filthiest of peasants would wear them, and you've got no shoes.

As for reacting to things being moved around and such, the AI has already been programmed to be aware of it's surroundings (or at least, it will be soon) and to be aware of where the player is, and to be aware of where objects are in the world (as well as have an understanding of what these objects are and what they're for). So, it might not be too big a jump to say the AI could be programmed to react if objects are being moved around, or if the player is in some place they're really not supposed to be (i.e. on top of a table), or if the player has suddenly fallen or otherwise made a strange movement and gotten hurt.

Then they could be programmed to react in any way necessary, whether it's to say some laugh dialogue or to get angry at the player character, ask the player to stop (and force them out of their home if they don't), or ask if they're okay, or whatever. I don't think the physics engine would support the NPCs helping the player get up, though. That might be a bit tricky to do.

 

[fluffydino2000]

You make a good point. Based off what's been discussed about combat AI, it seems NPCs are aware of a lot. They need to know where objects are relative to them and other things to determine whether an attack is viable. I see no reason why this couldn't be extended to them noticing a player is stood on a table or walking into there friend. If they can detect and understand what's happening, that's half the battle. Reacting to it would probably just entail assigning some kind of behaviour descriptor to it, like rude or inappropriate. Beyond that, NPCs probably try and calculate how it may affect them and anything else they care about (how it could affect there arch-nemesis or there mother's groceries).

 

[Avramovic]

Certain items/areas could have triggers that would make NPC's react in certain ways - for example, if you just walk into someone's home, they could be wary of you and start asking you to leave; if you take/grab some item or food, or start messing with locked containers, they could become alarmed and reach a point where they'd yell for guards, which could then trigger nearby militia or soldiers to run toward you and either attack you on the spot (not so good mechanic) or trigger a "fine and GTFO or fight meh!" style dialogue (better mechanic), which could be supplemented by additional dialogue options if player has good charisma/intimidation/bluff values (much better mechanic).

 

[Tony]

Certain items/areas could have triggers that would make NPC's react in certain ways - for example, if you just walk into someone's home, they could be wary of you and start asking you to leave; if you take/grab some item or food, or start messing with locked containers, they could become alarmed and reach a point where they'd yell for guards, which could then trigger nearby militia or soldiers to run toward you and either attack you on the spot (not so good mechanic) or trigger a "fine and GTFO or fight meh!" style dialogue (better mechanic), which could be supplemented by additional dialogue options if player has good charisma/intimidation/bluff values (much better mechanic).

Your charisma/intimidation/bluff is not going to be a set of values in the game. You, the player, will have to bluff well, charm someone well or intimidate someone well if you want to succeed at any of these. How well you do so is up to you, not some artificial value that you must keep raising.

For example, if you want to bluff and convince someone to believe a lie you better hope they don't already know the truth. If they do know the truth you better have a believable excuse to convince them with or else they will more than likely tell you to get lost (how they react will depend upon how they currently view you; friendly, perhaps you helped them in the past; or maybe they think you're an idiot and want nothing to do with you).

Whether or not you succeed will depend upon the choices you make; it will not be determined by whether or not your character in the game has a big enough number.

 

[Avramovic]

mmm, that is interesting, but what about other factors, for example - a person won't react same to a scar-faced, gritty mercenary and cute-looking teenage female... right? (at first ball, of course, once I open up my mouth it's all about whether I *can* convince them of something)

 

[Tamha & Xalbrus]

Been thinking on this subject and wouldn't mind a little more clarity however I am more of a hands on hind of person, I learn best by doing things. Seeing how it works in game will ultimately answer the questions better than anything else. Until we do however I am willing to wait and see rather than drawing conclusions.

I don't personally feel we've had enough information yet to try to truly understand how the social AI is going to work in regard to that. Given the scope of the game I am uncertain if a traditional understanding of social systems and interactions will be accurate to apply to the game. As for scarring and other visual markers that may or may not adjust the reactions there hasn't been a lot of discussion about how the visual customizations will work just yet that I've seen.

~Xalbrus aka Deapri

 

[Tony]

Been thinking on this subject and wouldn't mind a little more clarity however I am more of a hands on hind of person, I learn best by doing things. Seeing how it works in game will ultimately answer the questions better than anything else. Until we do however I am willing to wait and see rather than drawing conclusions.

I don't personally feel we've had enough information yet to try to truly understand how the social AI is going to work in regard to that. Given the scope of the game I am uncertain if a traditional understanding of social systems and interactions will be accurate to apply to the game. As for scarring and other visual markers that may or may not adjust the reactions there hasn't been a lot of discussion about how the visual customizations will work just yet that I've seen.

~Xalbrus aka Deapri

If this was referring to my previous post the devs have stated that the AI will react to actual player choices and not simply based upon your character's stats. One of the previous examples they gave was stealth. They said if you wanted to be stealthy there is no magic stat that allows you to be better at it. You will have to use cover, shadows, etc. well in order to not be detected.

They've given multiple other examples as well but I do not have time to search for them (must leave to work in a few minutes) or I'd quote a few. They've made it pretty clear that they want NPCs to have their own goals, to be able to make their own decisions and to react to what is occurring around them. They are not building the game to be heavily stat driven. This is why your character doesn't have stats you can change like charisma. How charismatic you are is determined by the choices you make. Player actions will influence outcomes more than a player's stats.

 

[Tamha & Xalbrus]

Yes, I was more looking at the idea of whether or not physical markers like scars or other visual traits on the player model would apply. I would suspect not however due to the trivial nature of that kind of response.

I was mostly expanding on Avran's thoughts, not the large visual queue responses. Real stealth systems rely on environment physics (something absent in many modern games but improving) a system which is key to Sui Genaris so that system is expected. The minor details of how the player appearance specifically effects 'social' interaction is what I meant, not the larger overall AI.

I had hoped my previous post was clear, if it was not, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused in my post.

 

[Tamha & Xalbrus]

Yes, I was more looking at the idea of whether or not physical markers like scars or other visual traits on the player model would apply. I would suspect not however due to the trivial nature of that kind of response.

I was mostly expanding on Avran's thoughts, not the large visual queue responses. Real stealth systems rely on environment physics (something absent in many modern games but improving) a system which is key to Sui Genaris so that system is expected. The minor details of how the player appearance specifically effects 'social' interaction is what I meant, not the larger overall AI.

I had hoped my previous post was clear, if it was not, I apologize for any confusion I may have caused in my post.

Edit:

To get a little more back on topic, with the manner in which most games handle applying scars or facegen would be readily enough added as markers that could effect the AI sure, as well as making a mess in someones house might. Would it be worth the effort of coding those markers, and how easy would it be to tell the difference between a poorly controlled character and general mayhem? The physics of the engine are however substantially improved by giving the player full physics obviously seen in the videos.

Havok for example in several games I have worked with is seldom set with enough precision and causes unrealistic force. The example given here in regard to knocking stuff over in a grand hall didn't have reaction in Skyrim due to the likelihood of that happening from bumping into the table as readily as dancing on it. In my own experiments I did find that some more realistic collision physics 'can' be done with the engine but nothing to the accuracy of Sui Genaris and we return to the limits of main stream engines.

 

[SergeDavid]

...
i.e. you're wearing a vest and gloves fit for a king, but for some reason your trousers are shoddy and falling apart and not even the filthiest of peasants would wear them, and you've got no shoes.
...

Must be a king.
Why?
He hasn't got shit all over him.

 

[Leo]

i think you guys are going a little too far. This people are creating a great game, but not the most advance AI's ever made LOL.

 

[turtleman155]

but why not

 

[Tony]

i think you guys are going a little too far. This people are creating a great game, but not the most advance AI's ever made LOL.

Read their goals about what they'd like to do with AI. Yes, if they succeed, it will be some of the most advanced AI in an RPG game. I can't think of any other RPGs that have anything like what they're attempting in SG.

 

[Leo]

Read their goals about what they'd like to do with AI. Yes, if they succeed, it will be some of the most advanced AI in an RPG game. I can't think of any other RPGs that have anything like what they're attempting in SG.

Sorry but you offend me. I do not comment anything on other people's comments if i don't read them first.

 

[Tony]

Sorry but you offend me. I do not comment anything on other people's comments if i don't read them first.

I wasn't attempting to offend you and I did, indeed, read your comment before responding. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[Leo]

I wasn't attempting to offend you and I did, indeed, read your comment before responding. Would you care to elaborate?

no, no you got it all wrong. I mean i read the comments before i posted my comment. I said you offend me because i actually read all of the suggestions, and you told me to read them " Read their goals about what they'd like to do with AI. " Get it? And yeah i know you were not trying to offend me.

 

[Tony]

no, no you got it all wrong. I mean i read the comments before i posted my comment. I said you offend me because i actually read all of the suggestions, and you told me to read them " Read their goals about what they'd like to do with AI. " Get it? And yeah i know you were not trying to offend me.

Then a simple misunderstanding has occurred. *shakes your hand*