Poll: Are shields wielded by hostile NPCs too effective?

[crashingtingler]

NPCs with shields can be very hard to defeat. often they feel too hard. shields can block such a wide area so reliably that in rare cases they seem untouchable.

there is also no hard counter to fighting shields. some techniques work against some shields but not against others.

damaging an enemy by breaking their stamina and damaging them through the shield has no audio or visual feedback. this is an issue because you have no idea if youre damaging the enemy or if their at full health. a small grunt might be enough to help understand how the fight is progressing.

In particular this round shield:

and this heater shield:

both seem to block more of the weapon-hand than the other shields, making them even more hard to deal with than usual.


(i also think enemies ought to be stunned for a moment when their shield-stamina is depleted, but that isnt the point of my post)

 

[Homiccus]

Yeah, they are rather difficult to bypass. However, as far as I know, the developers are aware of this and the game mechanics concerning shields are still being tweaked.
In real life there are several techniques to counter the shield user, ie. pushing against the opponents' shield with your own to create an opening. I have tried some of those in the arena with mixed results.

 

[gugand]

I agree they are hard because they need a lot of patience to create an opening in their defence. I don't think they are too hard, but a bit stressfull. I think that a little stamina should be lost by shield wearer. I don't agree on shield bar recovery, i prefer it like a bonus stamina. I lost against shield wearer cause a too long match that stress me and made me lost my focus.

Sorry for my english.

 

[ChildrenofMana]

I got mixed reactions.

1. With a dual wield character I can defeat any NPC shield users, I am not saying its easy but it is not hard.
2. With a 2-handed or Polearm, It is more a challenge long match until I deplete any shield bar and land hit on the shoulders or head.
3. With a Shield and 1-handed I struggle with all NPC shield users, Its difficult to get past their defences and they take advantage of my openings. I cant seem to deplete their shield bar fast enough, and my swings hardly get past their parry or Shield.

The Round shield is really annoying. I wonder if there could be some "weight" or low turning speed that can nerf its effectiveness.
I cant imagine turning so fast as we do with that Round Shield.

 

[Tony]

My personal opinion is that I really appreciate the challenge that shield wielders offer; they require using different tactics and strategies which adds some nice variety to the combat. As far as shields being some of the most difficult to overcome I believe that's the entire point of using a shield isn't it? To greatly increase your defensive capabilities? It wouldn't be worth investing skill points in shield proficiency if there was little benefit to doing so. Investing skill points which are limited in number, additional encumbrance, requiring your offhand to be used to hold a shield instead of something else like a torch, lowering your overall balance and agility, less reach than using a two-handed weapon... lots of downsides to using a shield which makes them fairly well balanced (in my opinion).

I believe Madoc plans on tweaking the blocking/parrying mechanics so that blocking doesn't stop all momentum/inertia like it currently does. This will make it more viable to 'push through' a block or parry (especially if you're using a heavier weapon vs. a lighter weapon) and have the strike still do some damage. This change will also increase the likelihood of glancing or grazing blows after striking a shield due to the weapon bouncing or sliding off the shield.

Here's a short video showing some strategies I use to overcome shields in the current build:

As you can see the entire elimination match took roughly two minutes (which I don't consider to be too much time considering the number of opponents defeated, 3/5 were using shields).

 

[gugand]

I agree that the shield is thought to increase defence, but it is stressful when i fight against 3 o 4 shield wielder in a row. Adept or Novice shield wielder are quite easy to beat cause shields are small and there are larger windows for successfull hits. Adept and over enemies are very harder to beat, expecially when they are skilled on shields. I think they are too much stronger compared to the other kind of enemies. Just take a look on AI vs AI. The PNG that wield a shield wins almost all times.

 

[Maktfaktor]

I completely agree with what Tony is saying.

Firstly, fighting should be a challange, if I want a nice easy time I'll play skyrim or some other more casual experience instead.

Secondly, shields were used for a reason. Riot cops still use them today. They should cut off lines of offense, it's their very purpose.

Edit: Without the shields there's no risk of losing in the arena.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Also if you hit the shield enough and deplete the shield stamina bar they take stamina damage. So you can lower their hp like that and then it only takes 1 hit to finish them off. At least something to consider if you have hard time bypassing them.

 

[ThommiX]

You can also get by them by moving diagonally towards their weapon arm. Time it right and you hit them square in da head,with really great power and momentum. Or use Right to Left hits to get past it. Several ways,they aren't too difficult,harder though than enemies without shield but thats just realistic.

 

[MrSharkus]

I would be okay against AI with shields except for the fact that, when you get them to low health, they somehow transform into some unstoppable incredibly fast ninja (this applies to all of the AI but it's particularly bothersome against shields). I've noticed far too often that low health enemies somehow gain this superhuman ability to judge exactly when I'm going to attack, and I end up resorting to using fists just to try and finish the job.

My main problem with the shields themselves though is often when I'm aiming for the enemy's head, a small corner of the shield gets in the way of my powerful swing and thus all damage against them is mitigated if they're at full shield stamina. The same applies to enemies parrying polehammer swings at their face with a dinky sword. Oh well, I can probably live with it I spose.

 

[BadCompany141]

an axe can go over parries and blocks, especially tony's poleaxe above. i find myself having a hard time when i use a sword or anything else that cant go over their shield/parry during an exchange. other than that there is definitely more than one way to overcome them and their effectiveness comes in what shield skills the NPC has

 

[Jimmini]

My main problem with the shields themselves though is often when I'm aiming for the enemy's head, a small corner of the shield gets in the way of my powerful swing and thus all damage against them is mitigated if they're at full shield stamina. The same applies to enemies parrying polehammer swings at their face with a dinky sword. Oh well, I can probably live with it I spose.

Will be fixed.

We've been wanting to change this for some time, the more realistic mechanics are all there already and used circumstantially (e.g. passive blocking, ogre hits to shields), and with the recent changes the physics handle the clashes of weapons far better than before. It is however quite a substantial gameplay change and one we want to transition to with some care.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/362490/discussions/0/135507548125030342/#c135507548125096823

 

[Kaladin]

Only way that works for me is feinting. Sometimes if they go for a lunge you can snap them in the head with an overhead.

 

[desudesudesu]

I think shield are mostly balanced. Sure it can be a bit tricky to land blows, but it really should be: that's the point of a shield. Still it hasnt stopped me from one-shotting shield guys at the start of the round. Another cheap trick is to run away from them so that they chase you (they drop their guard a bit when doing so) then turn around and blam hammer to the head. The other ways i find are to to do LtR crouch swing to hit their left leg. Also wait for for them to do a LtR and counter it with a RtL which usually hits their right arm / shoulder / torso or side of head.

The other thing is the point cost of a shield and sword. Ive noticed at novice / adept levels you have to make some tradeoffs on decent armour to afford the shield which seems fair to me. Also obviously the big trade off is range and power. When im using shield i generally prefer fighting other shield users since guys with large 2H can sometimes knock you around if you keep distance and it's really difficult to do much with a mace when youre hugging them. (Okay the dagger and short sword are incredible if you hug and thrust but it only really works up until adept by which time most enemies are fairly well covered and weak thrusts dont do enough)

 

[gugand]

It depends on the AI. On higher tiers shield wielders are a pain in the ass. Usually i use my 2 handed sword. When i fight in Eliminations i beat the first shield wielder i steal his/her equipment and i wear it as secondary weapon. In next fights i swap my weapons depending on adversary. I am happy that BM reduce the shield wielder probability in the last update

 

[desudesudesu]

Agreed about the npc shield probability. While i dont think the shields are 'unfair' or too difficult, they certainly do piss me off and usually drag a fight out a lot longer than it needs to be. When i use the shield it's usually only until about adept; after which many npc start wearing crude plate and full helmets so you cant get easy one-hit-kill thrusts with the the short sword. I know you can be pretty lethal in expert and master with a mace, but honestly vs full plate i just find a 2H (polehammer) ends fights faster and more reliably - even against shield npc

 

[Kaladin]

Personally, I don't find shields too troublesome. They can be scary early on during Arena mode, when you don't really have decent armor and your weapons still suck. Still, some patience and solid footwork will eventually do the trick. Happy for reduced amounts of shieldbearers though, not gonna lie.

 

[16iclark]

NPC's with shields are very effective, but I wouldn't say TOO effective. I try and side step a lot when I'm facing an NPC with a shield. Works for me! Most of the time

 

[gugand]

Talking in general i agree with you all, but Elimination in arena mode is very stressfull when you fight against 3 or 4 shield wielder in a row. Other matches are ok usually.

 

[Midcal9]

I'm not the most proficient Exanima player mainly because I find it fairly hard to face my opponent all the time or click on backspace only when my cursor is pointing towards my enemy. I suppose it's a self inflicted effect of being self taught. I didn't go through all the stages of learning the way you're supposed to and mastered various elements of combat in a very haphazard way. However, I did get defeated by shield users in Elimination round where all of my opponents were shield users. The last got the best of me.

Shield users almost always outlast every other npc in Fray. In 8 out of 10 Fray it will be the shield user (Yes I like to spectate fray rounds from some safe corner of the arena). It's not very "realistic" but I don't see any way to fix this apart from nerfing them. So yeah, nerfing is no go. That's one of the in built features of game mechanics.